Starbucks: The Way I See It

It looks like some conservative groups are getting all itchy now that Starbucks has started their "The Way I See It" cup quotes.  Baptist Press has run a story today on it. 

What's the issue?  Well, it seems that Starbucks is pushing the homosexual agenda because cup #43 gives a racy quote on homosexuality.  As I read this BP article, I noticed my grande skim 3 pump mocha was being carefully and providentially cradled in cup #43 which reads...

My only regret about being gay is that I repressed it for so long.  I surrendered my youth to the people I feared when I could have been out there loving someone.  Don't make that mistake yourself.  Life's too damn short.

- Armistead Maupin, author

Of course BP inserts the word [expletive] for "damn" and blacks it out on their pic of the cup, but their larger concern is what the cup teaches.  But, is the cup and quote meant to teach?  Or simply open doors of conversation?  From the Starbucks website on this campaign...

Starbucks has long been dedicated to creating a unique "third place" between home and work. We also draw on the centuries-old tradition of the coffeehouse as a place to gather, share ideas, and enjoy delicious beverages. We see this program as an extension of the coffeehouse culture – a way to promote open, respectful conversation among a wide variety of individuals.

And they mean wide variety.  Sure this quote is racy from one perspective, but they also entertain quotes from staunch conservatives like Michael Medved and Jonah Goldberg.  So if Starbucks "blatantly pushes the homosexual agenda" on cup #43, what are they pushing on the cups with flame-throwing right wingers?  A conservative agenda?

Given: We will all read from cups that we disagree with.  That's a sure thing.  That's the point, really, to start conversations not push agendas.  And conversations are best started by racy ideas, not bland ones.  By the way, on the cups and on the Starbucks website it even says the quotes don't necessarily reflect the view of Starbucks.

Christians are too good at missing the point, and I'm afraid that's what's happening here.

Don't we look fearful?  We look like we are afraid of the open discussion of ideas.  These quotes are meant to be conversational, and coffee shops are perfect places to list racy quotes worthy of discussion.  We believe that in the world of ideas the redemption Story stands supreme as the best and most beautiful explanation of reality and truth.  We shouldn't fear other ideas out there.

One person quoted in the BP article says,

It's not enough not to go to Starbucks anymore.  You really need to visit your neighborhood Starbucks and ask to see the manager and just say, 'You know, I've gone here a lot and I would love to go here but I have to tell you your company's promotion of something that is against my values prevents me from having coffee here anymore, and I've found alternatives ... You make a great product, but you deserve to know why people aren't buying your product anymore.'

How about instead we enter the conversations of our culture knowing that our Story makes sense of the world like no one else's story or quote.  I think Starbucks has a great idea, and Christians should be thankful for the opportunity to join more discussions on huge and even ultimate issues.

Comments

[Mark]

Steve,

I believe the article has two storylines:
1. Starbucks running with, "The Way I See It" conversation starter cups. And...
2. Starbucks sponsoring gay-pride activities.

Aside from the cubs...I mean cups...the real issue seems to be the sponsorship of the parade(s). Once Starbucks begins to receive bad press for their foolish sponsorships, they'll back-off. The cups, on the other hand, should continue to explore stimulating conversations and prepare us (Christians) to defend our beliefs.

[Justin Sok]

Great point Steve. I fear many would lose on the oppurtunity to engage with someone if they fail to go to a Starbucks, and actually do what Starbucks is trying to do. Good post!!

[Steve McCoy]

Mark, I think the problem is they muddle two ideas. The article begins and ends with the cup and act as if that promotes an agenda. It doesn't, and I think you agree.

[Hoagy]

It'd be great to get in on the conversation. Problem is, most Christians can't or won't carry on that kind of conversation with nonChristians. They think they aren't supposed to talk about 'those subjects' like it'll give them some sort of disease.

[Amy]

Steve, your take on this issue has been a breath of fresh air. Some Christians (I won't name names, but they belong to groups with "family" in the title) go through life with the goal of never, ever encountering anything offensive and that's so unChristlike.

[Joe Thorn]

Starbucks coffee is rank, but the cups are great opportunities to guide the conversation toward things hat matter - if you care enough about people to be talking to them in the first place.

Perhaps Maupin's words can be used as a springboard. (Concerning the quote) It actually happens to everyone, we surrender ourselves, we give up/in to what others think. We only have an identity that is derived from pop-culture and consumerism. How sad when we are so much more! Even with this cup, we are more than our sexual orientation, and only Christ can reveal it to us. Only God can show us what we are meant to be...

Anyway, great analysis Steve. Thanks for writing. Now uhh... I have to run and buy some gay-friendly coffee.

[Mark]

Justin,
Yep, I do agree.
Now, it's off to get a Venti dark roast.

Hmmm...Starbucks...

[Matt]

Are the folks at BP aware of what they're doing? Do they realize how silly they look? People leave the church - not a church, but THE church - over this sort of thing.

[Marty Duren]

Here we go again...it's going to be Disney all over...crap.

If someone brings this up at the next convention, Steve McCoy needs to speak against the motion while he's holding a cup of Cafe Americaino from Starbucks--label facing the camera.

[Steve McCoy]

I just might do that Marty. Seriously, that would not only be really funny, but would be subversive enough to make a point. Bravo.

[Paul]

I don't drink coffee (not old enough yet) but this article makes me want to start.

[Danielle]

Thanks for this post, Steve. I think the problem with many Christians (and I know I have the same mind-set sometimes) is that we get all upset when non-Christians are sinful and don't embrace our values. But, why should we expect them to do otherwise? Isn't that unfair, unrealistic, and even an unbiblical mindset to have such expectations of non-believers? Wouldn't we be in the same place except for the love of Christ? There are some things we have to take stands against, but I don't think the Starbucks cups are one of them. They open the conversation to start talking about whatever is written on the cups so we have an opportunity to share our beliefs. That's a great thing!

[Steve McCoy]

Joe, per your "Starbucks coffee is rank" comment. The other complaint often is "Why are we complaining about gas prices and paying 4 bucks for a drink?" How should Christians think about things like this?

I like their mocha, but their coffee black bites my head off. But the great thing is that I can survive the coffee, even if it's not my favorite, because people are there in a more conversational atmosphere and I can meet and get to know people. I could quickly name more than twenty people that I have never seen anywhere but Starbucks.

We need to frequent more places like this, not just because the drink is our favorite, but because we love people. The expensive drinks are a small fee for getting to know our neighbors.

[Joe Thorn]

Of course I agree Steve. And would only add
1) I do not complain about the price of gas.:)
2) SB's is only one place among a hundred in a good sized city. Where I am we have chain and indie coffee houses, pubs galore, a couple cool diners where people hang out and talk, etc. I am pro any local gathering place the promotes conversation and relationships. Please, no one interp. that statement the way some interpreted Seay's comments about HBO (I lobe everything on HBO). You know what I mean.

[Joe Thorn]

Daniell,

I think the church has bought the idea that America was and is supposed to be Christian, so that any form hot-topic immorality we find must be stamped out via the political process. Homosexuality, abortion - let's get out and vote! Let's write letters. Let's do something. But the immorality of economic oppression, and the exploitation of the poor... Uh - let's not worry about that stuff, because those things are NOT a part of family values (what the church believes in over the law of God).

Hyperbolic, but close enough.

[Steve McCoy]

Joe, yeah I know you agree with me on this. True, there are other places depending on where someone lives.

[Rick Bennett]

the sad thing about the BP reporting is the lack of relevance and timeliness. I read an article on this months ago in my newspaper (I even blogged on it).

I guess the BP was not finding any good stories and finally got around to reading the newspapers in their office, seeing an ancient story on this subject and thinking they could pass it off as "news."

[Ben Arment]

Steve, thanks for this great post. I grabbed a postage-paid entry form from our local Starbucks and submitted my own quote. They say they welcome any and all submissions for consideration. Another thing we could do is open our own coffeeshops... like National Community Church in Washington DC - http://www.ebenezerscoffeehouse.com/ Why not make our own cups? What's stopping us?

[Alex]

Thanks for talking about this Steve - just read the article and it really is just silly. Makes us look like a bunch of rhubarbs. Will the Convention never get a clue?

[Julie (a.k.a. Sis)]

Steve, I applaud your view on this subject. Too often, people jump to an immediate offensive position, believing someone has just slapped them in the face with a glove. It is refreshing, as someone else put it, to see a person read the article and look at it in a human way-- not in a let's-start-a-boycott mindset.

Now, go drink your coffee. (I can't BELIEVE you drink coffee!)

[Steve McCoy]

This is going to make it into this week's sermon somehow, "Makes us look like a bunch of rhubarbs."

[Alex]

Just give credit where credit is due, Steve! Or not...

[Kiki]

Our intern last year worked at Starbucks. In fact, he's now a shift manager. That job has been amazingly strategic--both for him and us! I can't tell you the number of times I have seen people walk up to him, and Chris greet them with a "Carmel latte, right?" or "venti cappuccino?" Then they notice he is representing CrossSeekers, and it intrigues them. But they feel "safe" with Chris, because he is their "friend" from Starbucks.

We would be sooooooo stupid to boycott Starbucks! I agree with Alex--we need to stop acting like a bunch of rhubarbs!!!

[Joel Maners]

One myth that this whole article plays into is the idea that at some point, Christians dominated the national conversation. Back in the 50's 60's or whenever, Gay and Lesbian topics simply were not part of the political landscape. Now that they are we have to in essence put the genie back in the bottle. The theory goes that we should do this through coersive methods so that these "subversive messages" will be forced underground again. It's just so much easier to slam other people/companies/organizations than have a conversaion with them. If we don't learn how to have a civil conversation with the world, we willbe come more and more marginalized.

[Donna Caruso]

Well, after reading many of these comments I have to admit I can see both sides. But my first reaction is that I was offended by #43. It's coffee! I get it to go. I'm old and don't need to hang around Starbucks to find good conversation. Whatever happened to bars? You can join many psuedo-intellectual conversations there, solve the world's problems and repeat the whole process the next day since you won't likely remember everything you said. If you really want to make a difference, get off your conversation starting butts and do something for someone! I get the lifestyle thing, but wake up Starbucks.....IT'S COFFEE! I don't like being offended by my coffee cup and I'm going to Einstein's!

[Andrea Teas]

As a Christian, and a Baptist, this cup does more then open the door for conversation it makes me so upset that I don’t want coffee! This cup reminds me how everyday the world asks me to tolerate things that I am against. I don't go to Starbucks to have them give me topics to talk about, I want their coffee and that is it! But by them putting this on their cup, it changes the entire atmosphere of the shop into one that I don’t want to be in. I don't agree with the quote, and don't want to see it on my coffee. If it is such a little thing, that Christian are make out to be a big deal when it’s not, then why can’t they just change it. It doesn’t stand for anything anyways.

[Brandon]

Ok. as someone had said defend your religious beliefs but what are you defending? are you defending your insecurity of your self or just blatenly judging someone by thier appearance, by defending your beliefs, is for me to defend my rights. for my rights to be harrassed and disconcerted, while in and out has john 3:16 on the bottom of thier cups and im not christian and i know what that is, just like how most of you ignorant posters are not GAY and know what that word means. I may not be the brightest crayon in the box but i sure am intellectual.... being gay and reading the bible is probably to understand and respect a seperates world, maybe MOST of you posters should learn about my world and what we have to offer. By the way....in the bible, god mentions for another human to not judge by themselves but to leave the judgement up to him, if in fact if this is true, then why the discrimination and HATE from chrisitians that start developing these ideas? theres alot to debate, but never the less we dont violate your right to be christian, and thus we EXPECT the same respect. God BLESS you all....and i hope you all have respectable views in the future!

[Glen Peterson]

Steve, Are you still a Baptist? These kinds of things are making me want to quit being one. I am going to come back and read more of your blog but first I am headed over to Starbucks to buy a coffee (requesting cup #43) and see if I can't make friends with a homosexual man, or a greedy person or a prostitute or a tax collector or someone--cause I just feel the need to be more like Jesus today!

[Steve McCoy]

Glen, yep, still a Southern Baptist who pastors in the North. I'm drinking from #61 right now. Haven't seen #43 in a while. I think the Starbucks "agenda" is failing. :)

[Marcguyver]

Well, I must agree that we should be willing to discuss 'hard' topics with other non-believers. But, I also think it's okay for us to disagree about what businesses do with their product; afterall we are the consumer and decide their 'bottom line' based on whether or not we consume or purchase their product.

Mr. McCoy, again I find myself agreeing with you that we should not be so insensitive and touchy over a statement that is against our personal beliefs that we just walk away in a 'huff' and scream: "You Sinners!"

However, if Starbucks is truly interested in a 'rousing' discussion on a hot topic than they should put this on their next cup:
"My only regret about being a Christian is that I repressed it for so long and was afraid to tell others about Jesus Christ. I surrendered the best years of my life to the people I feared when I could have been out winning souls for the kingdom of righteousness. Don't make that mistake yourself; life is too short and eternity too important." --Marc Doney, just some guy.

[Marcguyver]

(I'm going to respond to Brandon's comments, if you want me to do this in a different format than let me know for next time)

So let me get this straight Brandon; it sounds like you are saying that you are not a Christian and are a Homosexual? It also seems that you are somewhat discontent with the typical 'Christian' response to the homosexual lifestyle.

Look, for the record, sin is sin. We like to state things a bit different than that, but I guy who calls himself a Christian and cheats at work, or gets drunk from time to time, or engages in homosexual activity, or use profanity; they're all the same: 'sinners'. We tend to state that some sins are worse than others and make statements like: "So and so says he's a Christian but I heard he's living with another man still. He can't be saved if he's still committing homosexual acts." I however do not see this as being biblical and think that if it were true than we would have to say that the guy calling himself a Christian cannot be one because he was caught getting drunk every Saturday.

Yes we should repent, and turn our hearts and lives away from the practice of sin. Paul says that we shouldn't let sin abound in our mortal bodies and that we should no longer be slaves to sin but to the Spirit of God instead.

So, as a Christian, I apologize if you feel like you are being spurned by the 'Christian' community. Rest assured, Christ loves you and desires for you to be in relationship with Him; so much so that He was willing to die for you, just like he did for me, while I was stilling wallowing in my own sinful muck and mire.

Lastly, I have to say this. Though the bible teaches us to be careful on how we judge others; I think it is clear that we have to judge each other, we just need to make sure that we are doing so from a biblical standard. It is healthy for another believer to speak into my life and show me areas that need to be changed or 'cleaned up'. But it needs to be done in the right way and in the spirit of love. However, sometimes the bible commands that the church will have to remove some who are unresponsive to correction and need to be disassociated with and not be allowed to return until change has occurred.

Anyway, just wanted to respond and mostly apologize for the what appears to be your conception of how a Christian should be acting or responding to you as a homosexual and, wanted to make sure that you understand that sometimes we as imperfect humans can often give an improper 'representation' of a perfect God.

[Nick P.]

Never fear!

Starbucks welcomes Pastor Rick Warren...
http://www.usatoday.com/life/2005-10-19-starbucks-quote_x.htm

[Nick P.]

A working link to the Starbucks article

[Marcguyver]

Ha ha, maybe Starbucks is really truly interested in 'stirring' up conversation!

[Krist]

I think you are deceived if you think these cups are conversation starters. The serpent is more subtle... Any two people sitting at Starbucks sharing a cup of joe probaly already share the same beliefs on these issues. Anyone else at the coffeehouse who you didn't come with doesn't want to engage in a conversation like "gay marriage or right" witha stranger. This is pure propaganda, plain and simple. Besides, should we be talking about these issues or acting on these issues. You can talk all you want but I'd rather act. Boycotting Starbucks won't be hard for me anyway, I don't go there. Over priced crappy coffee. Please, open your eyes and see what is happening in our culture. The days are getting shorter.

[Steve McCoy]

Krist, I completely disagree with your view of the cups, Satan's ways, talking with strangers, Starbuck's intentions, the 'talking vs. acting' point, boycotting, and the taste of Starbucks coffee. Other than that, I appreciate you sharing your heart.

[jim millirons]

For a different take on Starbucks take a look at our state paper, The Christian Index for a great article entitled Starbucks and Stained Glass. BTW, we have a semester missionary working at Starbucks helping with a great church plant downtown Atlanta. The missional church must not rest until Jesus embeds every culture and community. Keep going to Starbucks and keep sharing Jesus!

[jim millirons]

I forgot to mention one of our church plants actually meets at Starbucks for Bible study. The church is public and incarnational. I recommend it!

[makenzie]

if starbucks wants to start conversations then why dont they put quotes on there that are insperational and encouraging. people dont want to come in and get a cup of coffee and have their cup talk about homosexuals. they want to relax! and to be honest, people dont want to talk about homosexuals over a cup of coffee, acually no one wants to bring up the sickening conversation of homosexuals ever!

[AC]

I'm scratching my head right now after reading your post.. In your post you knock Christians and come across as a gay sympathizer..

"Christians are too good at missing the point, and I'm afraid that's what's happening here.

"Don't we look fearful? We look like we are afraid of the open discussion of ideas...We shouldn't fear other ideas out there."

So what are you saying? We should not fear being gay? Ok who is fearing? We should accept the lifestyle? I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this one..

Steve.. ouch.. I'm not sure if it's the Christians who are missing the point? or you? lol
Ok so they put it on the cup what is the big deal. Well.. you did leave out the fact that Starbucks has a prior track record of supporting gay agenda in the not-too-distant past, but this was ended due to outrage by people who are not down with the gay movement, albeit Christians, or non Christians.

Let's not forget there are a slew of reasons why people might not be happy with gay agenda being on their cup, and yes, there are alot of non-Christians who aren't exactly fond of a gay cup of joe. People of all ages will read these messages.

Personally, I don't have children, but I don't exactly like the idea of young children getting their coffee in cup #43, and reading material supporting gayness, and I know there are a boatload of parents out there, conservative and liberal who are not keen on the idea of their kids having to deal with gay propoganda as seen on this cup #43. So let's realize this has bigger implications than just the Christian homefront, and not knock the Christians who don't agree with promoting gay lifestyle.

Steve, back to your post, your branding of christians as being ignorant or fearful--do you think that's what Jesus wants you saying about your Christian brothers? I think you should speak for yourself!

Clearly, this isn't about fear or ignorance..come on!
Btw, does anybody here really get into conversation over these cup messages? didn't think so.. "Hey buddy, nice cup message what do you think about it?"

Steve if you really want to start conversations for Jesus over gay issues, why don't you get some t-shirts made up with gay messages or wear gay pride gear all over town, or hang out at gay bars?

Your argument that we can use these cups to start conversation for Jesus--Really, is that the best excuse you can muster for having that baloney on there? Aren't we supposed to be sharing the gospel of Christ everywhere we go? Clearly as a pastor you should be well aware that we don't need a cup with gay message on it to start talking about Jesus and his plan of salvation! In my opinion, the gay cup-- is a BAD subject to get a conversation for Christ started on, especially to a non-believer. We are not hear to argue or change people. Leave that up to Christ! Let's get his message out!

Let's stop calling Christians and people who are not down with promoting the gay movement as being fearful, and ignorant of others. The gay agenda goes well beyond just this message on the cup at Starbucks, and last thing we need is more gay propoganda being sewn into our society to promote being gay as acceptable. Nonsense!

Look, I'm not arguing that anybody should be hateful towards gays or any of that baloney! We need to reach out as Christians to everybody, period.

Lastly, Try putting an anti-abortion message on a Starbucks cup and see the reaction you get! lol Now what exactly would you all have to say about the masses of protestors who will line up at your local Starbucks???

[Steve McCoy]

AC, you didn't get my point at all. You couldn't if you say, "So what are you saying? We should not fear being gay? Ok who is fearing? We should accept the lifestyle? I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this one.."

And I definitly don't want to try to convince you otherwise if that is going to encourage you to continue making comments that are longer than my post.

I'll be more brief. Starbucks is not a Christian org and will do and say and support non-Christian things. Whoopie, big shocker. I frequent one because it's a great "third place" where I can meet and interact with my neighbors and community. If you want to demonize them because they do what it's in their fallen nature to do, go for it. Jesus found ways to interact redemptively with the fallen world, and we are finding ways to avoid them. I'll go with Jesus.

[Wes H]

Steve,
Great reply. Right on.

[A.J. Kilgus]

I RECENTLY WENT TO STARBUCKS WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD SON. I HAD A LATTE` AND HE HAD A CUP OF COCOA. Nice innocent cocoa for a nice innocent child. A 3rd grader with great reading skills who decided to read his cup. Cup # 43. He says to me "Oh my gosh mom , there`s a BAD WORD on here!!!" He points to the word "DAMN" So I read the cup. YIKES! My 10 year old is now asking me as I`m reading, "Mom what does that mean?" I said " What?" He says "gay, I heard if before but what does it mean?" So I got to explain sexual orientation to my son that day. Blind sided, unprepared, and in a public place.
As to my personal view about everyones` sexual identity I say to each their own Their own way , their own journey and their own set of consequences .Whatever they may be. But these issues should not have to plague the mind of a child who just wanted a cup of cocoa.
I do not object to the freedom of speech exercised on the starbucks cups but I very much object to profanity and sexuality being placed in the hand of my child.
Perhaps Starbucks could get some support from National Literacy Council if they were to get a line of "The way Kid`s see it" cups. With exerpts from child oriented books. Or maybe a cross word or word find?? Or maybe they could stop serving cocoa and post a sign that says adults only.

[AC]

Kudos to A.J. for drawing a more real perspective to some further implications this cup might have.

Let's stick to the original issue, the gay message on the cup. Clearly this message gives credence to being gay as an acceptable lifestyle. Your argument was that this is a good thing because it can be used to start conversations for Christ, and that you go to Starbucks for such reasons. I didn't realize a cup message was necessary for such.
Nobody is demonizing Starbucks here..I drink Starbucks coffee too! shhh.. But if that is your reason for going there, I can refer you to some bars and entertainment clubs in my area, which would make great 'third places.'

So.. ultimately ... based on your own words..this all boils down to the fact that by going to Starbucks--a non-Christian organization as you stated--and asking for cup #43 which promotes Gay as an acceptable alternative, you are "going with Jesus?"

How ludicrous...

[AC]

by the way Steve.. how many conversations for Christ have you started in your local Starbucks due to the message on cup #43?

[Steve McCoy]

Particularly on cup #43? Probably about 4-5 conversations total (with both workers and drinkers).

No, the cup isn't necessary for starting conversations. It can be and has been helpful. But I had 4 or 5 conversations while at Starbucks yesterday and never even read my cup. I'm just saying that Starbucks, which has quotes from everyone from a gay person to Rick Warren, is not promoting something other than conversation. Do they support the gay agenda in general? That's what I've heard. But my point is that you cannot say this cup is a promotion of it without taking into consideration the variety of quotes they have. Are they supporting all those agendas? Of course not. As a matter of fact, I was just on the Starbucks: The Way I See It website and they had a mini promo for Michael Medved's radio show on the side because they have a cup quote from him. Medved is a very conservative guy.

By the way, I've been in email contact with the person who developed this campaign. He is still collecting more quotes and has even suggested I send in one of my own. I'm even more convinced this campaign is not pushing any agenda.

And AC, the original issue is NOT the gay message on the cup, but the usefulness of conversation starters. That's what my post was about. And I think bars are great "third places" too.

What is truly ludicrous is how little Christians interact in the culture with very, very lost people...as Jesus did.

As to A.J.'s point...my daughter who just turned 9 on Saturday knows (basically) what gay means. My daughter is around lost people, and hears things, and reads things, and asks me questions. I explain them in an age appropriate way, which is never perfect, and she learns about lostness, and sin, and grace, and redemption. Do I think Starbucks should be wise about what is put on their cups and who can read it? Sure. But they aren't perfect either.

[Chris W]

AJ –

Hmmm…you’re son found cup #43 and asked you what “gay” means. And why is this a bad thing? The way I see it, he made this discovery in your company, giving you the opportunity to explain it properly, with a biblical perspective. How is that bad? Better it was this situation than your son hearing about homosexuality elsewhere, when the explanation he may have received would have compromised his understanding. And hey, who said you had to answer his question in that public place? How about “let’s talk about it on the ride home, son.”

Our children will learn about these things with or without us being present. They will see bad words in print, here them on the street and in the playground. It’s the nature of our world. Why should we live in fear of the world when our savior promises to redeem it? Why do we try to shelter ourselves from the fallen world? It’s where we live, and we must deal with it. Anyway, the situation you described looks like an interesting bit of Providence to me.

[AJ Kilgus]

CHRIS W.
I never said it was a bad thing. Please do not put words in my mouth or twist things around.
I you are right that I didnt have to answer him right then and truthfully the whole conversation didnt take place right there. I am not naive to the ways of the world and I dare not shelter my kids from reality no matter the starkness of it. I did not condemn nor condone. I merely provided a more kid friendly alternative. AS I STATED PREVIOUSLY " to each their own" AS for my own- I choose to be IN this world not OF it.And while my children are young and impressionable I will teach them a level of what is acceptable in hopes that tolerance does not become indifference or complacency. WE can now choose fruit over fries at McDonalds, why not G rated cups over R???

[Chris W]

AJ - my apologies. I read some negativity into your post. Also, I failed to mention that I like your idea of the "how kids see it" cups. Worth suggesting to Starbucks?

But I will stand by the idea that the conversation it spurred with your child is one that all parents must have with their children. Maybe sooner than you expected, but not necessarily too soon.

[Kevin]

Steve,
Thanks for bringing this conversation out and for continuing to care about comments months after your original post. I hope what I add here isn't redundant.

Can we hold corporations that are run by nonbelievers to Christian standards? I don't expect my unsaved neighbor to share my beliefs, why should I expect that of Starbucks or any other company? According to the San Francisco Gay Pride Festival website, their sponsors include Delta, Bank of America, Diet Pepsi, AAA, and Ramada, amoung many others. I believe they care far less about pushing the "homosexual agenda" than they do about making a buck...they sponsor the event to make money. Should I take this into consideration when I make travel plans, open a checking account or buy a soda? I think it would be better for me to make use of the services I require and when one of them provides me a platform for thoughtful discussion while I'm at it, I should take them up on it. If we only patronized those businesses that shared our values, I believe we'd all be Amish.

[AC]

Kevin, I agree. I had a teacher in my baptist-run high school back in the late 80's who wouldn't eat at Pizza Hut and even turned down invites by non-believers to eat there. He was eager to share his stance with why he would not allow his family to eat there--they served alcohol. He would other boycott companies for such reasons.
I always found this sort of mindset to be a bit foolish and hypocritical. Meanwhile he was known as 'Mr. Apple,' the biggest Apple computer lover you ever saw. It was ironic. Someone should have told him that the very first Apple computer sold for $666 because of an occult connection by its founders! lol
We live in a world that is clearly satan's domain... so we need to be careful that we are in the world, not of the world..

[AC]

Now while I agree that what Kevin said may not be such a stretch..that is not to say I agree with gay messages on cups supporting homosexuality... I don't believe you can use Christianity or "living for Jesus" to put a spin on the reality of this and ramifications it may have.

Clearly my point was we do not need messages on cups to start conversations about Christ.

The sad reality is there may be thousands of people out there in desperate need of the gospel of Christ who are troubled in their lives and they sit down to enjoy a cup of joe alone, without Steve or any of you guys around to discuss it with them, and they read this message on their cup and start to question..they start to ponder.. "Gee.. if becoming gay helped this guy??" and maybe this cup becomes a vessel to start them down the wrong path or it sows some seeds of interest.. maybe not.. hopefully not..

[JIM]

Just because this is a conversation starter does it mean it is appropriate? Has society lost its hold on time and place? Just because all things are lawful does it make it expedient? How does a Christian’s view of truth affect their walk? Should a Christian actively support un-Biblical ideas and philosophies because they “open lines of communication”? Even with the “line” open how does this point people to Christ? Is this quote helping one present the gospel or just propagating the philosophy of gays, conservatives, communists, intellectuals and social misfits? Where does the truth of Christ come into the equation? Should Christians talk about all other issues under the sun, but never focus in on man’s REAL problem? There is a time and place for everything, but experience and a hoped for conversation should never justify polluted philosophy (quotes on the cups). And for the Starbuck church how does that church reflect Acts 2? Are you having communion there, or baptizing, how are your people expressing their spiritual gifts? Isn’t that a time and place issue-having church in a coffee house? How does this affect their business? One would think patrons would feel uncomfortable with people singing and a form of preaching be disseminated on them when they go for their Sunday cup of Joe.

[Steve McCoy]

I'm losing my patience on this one. I like to discuss this issue, but I seem to be a magnet for readers who miss the point.

JIM's said, for example, "Should Christians talk about all other issues under the sun, but never focus in on man’s REAL problem?"

Are you kidding? That IS my point, that we should let conversation starters let us get to ultimate issues. I said in my post, "I think Starbucks has a great idea, and Christians should be thankful for the opportunity to join more discussions on huge and even ultimate issues."

[Krist]

I, for one, refuse to be "thankful" to Starbucks for their tasteless cup idea.

Who cares if they give a couple "conservatives " or Rick Warren a cup. I don't care if they put John 3:16 on the cup. Even satan can quote scripture.

Looks like we should put another point on the score board for "Christian Tolerance".

[JIM]

Steve, I am sorry that you are losing "patience" (fruit of the spirit :), because after all isn't this a way to provoke thought and discussion? I know what you are saying and I agree with you that we need to get out of the comfort zone and meet people where they are, but it is appropriate to put sexual quotes on cups to foster conversation? Should a Christian go out and wear t-shirts that say, "Get saved, or Go to Hell" just to foster conversation with people? That isn't appropriate ether my brother. This is the only point I am trying to make (THE IDEA OF APPROPRIATNESS). As for being a "magnet" for misunderstanding-I don't know what to tell you, because after all you set the agenda here and all of us "magnets" are just giving our humble opinion. Please don't think of us "magnets" as less spiritual or intellectual as you, because there seems to be hints of this in your writing (I am sorry brother if I am wrong, because I don’t mean to judge motives). We are all here together trying to propagate the gospel with you, and I am not your enemy just a fellow laborer. Let it be said we can agree to disagree on this issue, because there is no need for contention-rooted in pride.

[Steve McCoy]

JIM, hope I haven't given the wrong impression here. I think the Starbucks issue is a big one. How we respond describes what we think about our mission. And I appreciate the tenor of your last comment.

I have seemed to attract people who want to knee-jerk on this issue, but I'm not trying to say I at some greater intellectual level. I think this is a very common problem on blogs. I'm just saying that a lot of people skim blog posts and skip much/all of the comments in order to express their ideas before really thinking about what was said. People are pretty often completely missing the point.

I just found a guy who on his own blog yesterday basically called me arrogant with a link to this site, I called him out on it and told him to explain himself, and in like an hour he retracted and apologized in a long personal email. He said he reread my post and decided he didn't read it closely. I appreciate that he was a man about it and did the right thing, but I want to encourage people to read and think and stop just reacting with what they already know. Maybe in the discussion we can all actually learn some new stuff?

On appropriateness...

It doesn't matter much to me whether it's appropriate or not. It's what's already being done. I can choose to use and engage, or boycott, or just ignore. I think we should choose to engage.

Thanks for the clarification bro. Sorry if I'm losing the "fruit." :)

[AC]

Steve I don't think anybody missed your points, but perhaps it is the other way around.
Clearly from your posts, you're not interested in engaging in REAL conversation, and being open to 'other ideas.'
Your argument that this cup is a real conversation-starter appears to be bogus, as even you, the cup man, has not been able to utilize such a great conversational tool as this--4 or 5 people and that's including employees? I expected alot more out of such a great cup message, especially since you have chosen to use it to "engage," right? It doesn't appear to be working very well. How many more thousands of people have been affected perversely, by reading this gay promotion on this cup? Thousands versus your 4-5 conversations you started. I guess it was a small price to pay. Pollute the minds of thousands so you could speak to those 4-5 Starbucks employees.

I only hope you are not so close-minded and *arrogant* when speaking with a non-believer.

There is absolutely zero scripture supporting your ideas and arguments over this non-sense. You seem to be too busy being cool, chugging your Starbucks #43 cup, listening to Nirvana?
According to your thoughts, we should not even be opposed to this cup message, because that would mean we are not walking for 'him,' and not engaging.

How absurd.

Gay starbucks cups are not prerequisites to talking about the gospel. Period. If you are really "walking" maybe you realize this absurdity. Christians are supposed to be counter-culture, not of the world, nor supporting the ideas of such.
No more bogus excuses for gay cup messages!

[AC]

By the way, where did you go to school? What church do you pastor? or..Are you a self-labeled Pastor?

[Steve McCoy]

"Gay starbucks cups are not prerequisites to
talking about the gospel. Period. If you are really "walking" maybe you realize this absurdity. Christians are supposed to be counter-culture, not of the world, nor supporting the ideas of such."

I never said it was a "prerequisite." It's a silly strawman to suggest I intend to say that at all. And I'm not supporting the position of the quote, but simply using ideas that are in the world to try to get people to discuss eternal issues. And this means you have again proven my point, that you aren't getting my point. Bravo.

And I can handle the fact that you hate my ideas. Whatever. Join the club. And I think thoughtful disagreement helps all. But your comments are mean-spirited, and now you make it personal, suggesting I might be a "self-labeled pastor." I can take the heat and I deal with people who know how to respectfully disagree all the time. But I have no problem banning jerks from my site. Adios.

[Marcguyver]

Mr. McCoy,

I want to let you know that I've appreciated your site. I know that I haven't always agreed with what you've commented on, but that's okay with me.
I think you've done a 'decent' thing by banning AC, his last post was blatantly 'mean-spirited' and I was quite taken aback by it.

I've been following this post for some time now and it has definitely got me thinking in areas that I hadn't thought about before. So I guess in the long run, it has at least accomplished that.

I find, after all of this, that my opinion hasn't changed much; go figure. I think we need to interact and reach our culture but I also think it's okay to disagree with this company's decision to post this type of comment on one of their products.

This has been quite the journey on this particular topic.

[Justin]

Homosexuality is an unhealthy and unnatural behavior, period. Some people have urges to perform sexual acts with animals. Should we allow that too just because some people enjoy entertaining themselves in those activities? Men can love other men without having anal intercourse or fellatio, which are both unhealthy acts to begin with. If you do just a little research, you can find that anal intercourse can be very damaging for the recipiant, and spreads disease much faster than vaginal intercourse. Typically, homosexuallity goes along with a promiscuous lifestyle. It only makes sense that a person that believes in the "whatever feels good is right" relativistic view will do whatever feels good at the time regardless of whether it's right or not. The fact that christians, like this guy here, are so concerned about not taking a firm stand against it, shows me that they're after more people to put money in the plate, or they're just afrain of confrontation. They're so afraid to offend anyone with a politically incorrect view because they may stop coming to church. God forbid people feel guilt for thier sins. Sure, we all sin, and homosexuals shouldn't be turned away from. A homosexual is no differnent that a guy that goes around deflowering young ladies for entertainment, a prostitute, a stripper, or the 20 year old guy everyone condemns because he has consentual sex (technically rape in many states) with a 16 year old whom he truely loves an means to marry. What should be condemned is the act of homosexuality, not the homosexual. When the bible says do not judge, that means really means that nobody can know or predict God's judgement. If we didn't judge anyone, then there would be anarchy. It's so funny to hear people condemn and judge other people because they're being "judgemental". That cracks me up every time.
Back to the point - When a company goes out of thier way to endorse homosexuality, like starbucks has here, those who have a problem with it should just boycott the company like I have. That's how the free market works in this wonderful country. Just recently, the christian community successfully boycotted proctor and gamble until they flushed thier management and stopped funding and endorsing homosexual groups.

[Joe]

I have sat here for the last hour or so reading and re-reading many of the posts left here in response to Steve's view on Starbuck's Cup #43, really it is just a cup of coffee. Inadvertantly, it sucks that it ended up in the hands of a child, but you cannot shelter children from everything. Being aware of a world, whether you believe is becoming more and more morally corrupt or not, is essential to functioning in it. As for starbucks "endorsing homosexuality" it recognized one quote from an influential author of the 1960's who happens to be gay. Also throughout these posts I read the maniacal comment well "if becoming gay made him happy...." that is just completely illogical. I do not think any person who is unhappy after reading that cup would even seriously entertain the idea of homosexuality as a road to happiness.
I have a question that i would see answers to... if protecting the sanctity of marriage and family calls for the ban on gay marriage... why are we not protesting television in the same regard when marriage is sold on television. where love goes to the highest bidder.... what kind of example is this setting? Honestly I say if two people love each other let them. this world needs more love...... less hate.

[Eugene K]

Starbuck promotes SIN and that’s ADULTERY!

[Steve McCoy]

WoooHoooo!!!!!!! Uh, I mean...a hem...righto! Bad Starbucks, bad.

[Mike Noakes]

Ok, here. Everyone knows that Starbucks sucks. Everyone should go to indie coffee houses that have better brews and are owned and operated by people with faces (the nice thing about a face is that if it makes you angry, you can throw your hot coffee in it!).

Logos Coffeehouse is the best in all Louisville. Hands down.

[Steve McCoy]

Where is Logos in Lvl, Mike?

[Richard A. Bailey]

Not far down Frankfort Ave. from one of the Derby City's premier coffee houses, Steve. I'd say I'd take you there next time you are in town. But that would be a lie. Since it's not far from the Rover, though. I will point it out to you over the top of my pint of Guinness. Two things, however, in the interest of full disclosure. One, Mike's profile makes it clear he is a barista. Let's suppose it's at Logos. How might that color one's interpretation and invitation to "the best in all Louisville?" Two, after having Gary Heine go out of his way to be overly gracious to members of my family on several occasions and following several lengthy conversations with the man about redemptive-type work (given another thread I won't yet call it kingdom work), I tend to have my own tainted opinion. Oh well, at least Mike and I can agree that when possible indie coffee (especially of the fair trade and organic variety) is the best way to go.

[Mike Noakes]

Indie coffeeshops are the best. And the Rover rocks my face off! I loved Logos when they started, then I began several months later... But, before I was at Logos, here in Louisville I visisted Heine Bro. quite often...

[Steve McCoy]

We need a scotch egg fest between friends. Would be great.

[Richard A. Bailey]

Stop twisting my arm, Steve. That's rude and un-Christlike.

[Pastor Randy Steinman]

Find this whole issuse strange since Jesus never condemns a person for their God-given sexual orientation. Your comments on Starbucks are enlightened, but some of the comments posted by others are disgusting. You protestants give the Faith a bad name when you get your panties in a bunch over something like this!

[Adam lyazidi]

The world is a creul place.It can have it's enlightend moments and it terrifieing moments too.Life is ran by faith, like the homo sexual convict.God is faith and He is the one created us so don't complain about how he made you or how you are .God is our king, our lord ,our master.

[Amy]

Thanks for your post!
To the confused...
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." And if I remember correctly, are we not called to love first?

[Kyla Krehoff]

We all have the right to our own opinions.
We all have the ability to make our opinions heard. All our opinions are able to make a difference. The problem is that not all of us are brave enough to voice our own opinion. Not all of us have all the time in the world for out opinions to make a difference. So when you get the chance to voice your own opinion, speak up!

[Kyla Krehoff]

Every living thing on earth is different fom one another. But no matter who you are, we all share on thing, we all are part of the same cicle of life. So lets put apart our differences and focus on what makes us all a like.