Total Abstinence

Oh man.  The SBC is just a delight.  Joe Thorn finds a gem of an article by Jack Graham in today's Baptist Press on the need for total abstinence from alcohol.  Uh, all that was sarcasm.  This is a mess of an article.

I expect that Joe's post tomorrow will register on the Richter Scale.  Look for it.

Comments

[bob hyatt]

yes.. that is a mess of an article. :)

It's not a bad position to advocate (not that it's mine... our church meets in a pub for pete's sake), but I think there are better ways to advocate it- better both logically and scripturally...

[Rick Bennett]

I need a drink after that.

[petew]

I agree with Graham, but I don't think he goes far enough. There are numerous examples throughout history where men have misinterpreted or even twisted the Scriptures to the harm of many. The Bible even warns us about such folks (2 Peter 3:16-17)...so I'm calling for a total abstinance from Scriptures, if you value your soul.

[Gary]

Ouch! That is rough. It is those type of articles that constantly make me ask myself if I feel called to be part to the SBC. I love them and I am active but is the fight that WILL take place worth my time.

[Travis Hilton]

Gary,
If you see THAT as a fight, don't bother. There are probably some other core issues you might want to reconcile first.

I really don't understand why you guys get offended by this position. The effects of a casual attitude toward alchol consumption are undisputable. I guess from our past debate(and I have already resolved in my heart not to go there again:) I have a pretty good idea what Joe's response will be. I just want to encourage respect for others convictions. At this moment I'm dealing with two church members who are suffering from the long term effects of alcohol abuse and it breaks my heart.

BTW, Steve, why don't you post on Graham's recent misinformed sermon on calvinism. I think that was much more spurious than anything in this article. Just a thought.

[Matt]

Travis: It's worth discussing because one can argue for its consumption. If it can be rationally and scripturally defended, then to set up a doctrine of abstinence as Graham has done throws up a giant barrier between abstainers and the rest of us.

Go find a group of college kids, especially kids from Baptist backgrounds, and ask them how this issue affects their life. They know in their heart they're clear before the Lord but they have to deal with families, friends and sometimes churches that stand in judgement of them - or least these folks were incessantly and needlessly - because of a well-intended but misguided doctrine of abstinence.

That's why it's important.

[Matt]

That last paragraph should read "They know in their heart they're clear before the Lord but they have to deal with families, friends and sometimes churches that stand in judgement of them - or least these folks WORRY incessantly and needlessly - because of a well-intended but misguided doctrine of abstinence."

My bad.

[Steve McCoy]

Let's just get this straight, THilton. Jack Graham is not proposing a personal conviction, but one that he thinks we all should follow. He expresses it as a command.

"The Word of God is clear. Remain totally abstinent of all things that are displeasing to Him. Christians who are concerned about their neighbors, friends and family should always ask before they decide to take a drink: Will this offend others? Will it cause someone else to stumble? (see Romans 14:21)."

He isn't saying drunkenness is displeasing, but drinking anything. It's titled "Total Abstinence" for crying out loud.

By the way, it breaks my heart when people who have abused sex too, but I haven't told any of them to never have sex again for the rest of their lives.

At issue here is the inability to do simple hermeneutics. Is the object in question drunkenness or alcohol? Graham points to alcohol, the Bible points to drunkenness (abusing alcohol). It's not sex, but the abuse. It's not food, but the abuse. If we get that straight we will be on the right path to enjoying God's gifts while also pursuing holiness.

[Steve McCoy]

Oh, and THilton, I'm not talking about Graham and Calvinism because others have and I don't want to.

[Gary]

Travis, I am not talking about the fight over drinking. I am just talking about the "fight" in general. Like it or not, if the missional leaders are going to want a voice one day, there WILL be a fight. I was just commenting on the fact that issues like this make me even wonder if the convention is worth fighting for.

We as young leaders can continue doing what we have been doing (which is good) but it will get us no where, I believe. If we want to see change, there will be a fight.

The only question I ask myself is if it is worth it.

I love the SBC but I remdind myself that God called me start a church and impact my community, not turn around a denom that is still hung up on issues as this article wrote about.

[Steve McCoy]

Gary, your thoughts and concerns resonate. Funny, I was commenting on your blog as you were commenting here. That happened with another guy today. Weird. But at least this is important. Your post was on Skid Row. :)

[Travis Hilton]

Steve,

Several months back, (I'm sure you have it archived), I gave a scriptural response. I understand why you want to revisit because of this article. If you feel you must straighten someone out because of the way they have presented an abstinence position, that's fine. I have resolved scripturally what my convictions are on this subject. "Let's just get this straight" as you like to say, I was meeting you and others who hold a different opinion halfway and appealing to the consideration that not all of us who hold to a position of abstention do so judgementally toward others. That doesn't mean I have to agree with you either. Beleive it or not Steve, I have made an effort to look over the fact that I disagree with you and Joe strongly on this subject.

I don't think the comparision to sex works. Would you tell an alcoholic after he dryed out that it was O.K. to go back to consuming alcohol, as long as he doesn't abuse it? I think its different. But still, I know, your problem is with advocating abstence.

BTW, Steve, you can call be Travis. If you have interpreted my comments as advesarial, they're not. I appreciate the posts on your blog. They have helped me a lot.

Grace,
Travis

[Steve McCoy]

Travis, if you think I mean to be adversarial, I don't. I'm responding to what you said. But I do like calling you THilton better. :)

You seem to take this personally as if this is about you. It's about what Graham said, and what the Bible says. If he has the conviction that he shouldn't drink, fine, if he wants to use the Bible to say everyone should abstain then I certainly can't and won't agree.

Your issue of the alcoholic is different, because they aren't just an abuser, but an addict. I used to abuse, now I don't. It wasn't an addiction, but an abuse. I see room for exceptions, for people who need to abstain for their own good. I don't see room for extrabiblical rules for those who aren't addicts.

Why is this position so unthinkable?...

1. God has given good gifts: food, sex, alcohol/wine, earth, etc.

2. Because of the fall we abuse God's gifts: gluttony, promiscuity/adultery/lust, drunkenness, idolatry/naturalism, etc.

3. Redemption causes us to reclaim God's gifts as gifts, not abuses: I eat healthy, I have great sex with my wife or abstain until marriage, I enjoy a glass of wine, I worship the One True God as one made in His image, etc.

4. As we work to redeem in the world, we are examples of redemption in how we eat, love our spouse, drink, worship - and that shows people that there is a God who is powerfully working to change us and make us truly human.

[Amy]

Presbyterians seem to have a more balanced approach to this issue. I don't drink very often but I still have problems with the total abstinence position. Just anecdotally there seem to be fewer problems with alcohol and drug abuse among Prez than among Baptists (at least from my recollection)

[JW]

If we, the younger evangelicals, can do anything for our world it would be to say adios to this sort of fundamentalism. It saddens me to be even connected with the SBC anymore with leaders like Graham espousing such non-sense.

Has anyone heard his sermon against Calvinism? It is one of the worst I've ever heard and I've never heard a good one from an SBC preacher on the subject. Misrepresentations and caricatures abound - as usual.

It is funny to me how these guys choose particular issues and miss God's main point -LOVE. If we could get the greatest commandments down then these issues would not be a big deal at all. The world sits back and laughs at these leaders who write in this way. Too bad.

[JW]

I spoke with a brand new student at SWBTS and he told me about all the new little facets of legalism brought in by Patterson.

I don't even want to get into to them but my friends descriptions made me think of middle-school. Is this where we are now?

These leaders are marginalizing themselves from the younger guns and not to metion our culture. That sucks. I would love to learn from them but not in an environment of fundamentalism - I want one of grace and goodness and love.

[Bill Parker]

The Ghost of J. Frank Norris Returns

Hang on tight to your shiny theological guns, ye young SBC reformers!

Paige Patterson and his minion of small minded followers are on the fundamentalist warpath.

Their agenda? To turn all of our agencies (IMB, NAMB, Seminaries, Lifeway, etc . . . ) into dispensational, Landmark, anti-woman, anti-tongues, prohibitionist, narrow minded legalistic agencies.

Is it working? Check out the new proposed IMB guidelines on appointing missionaries (must have been baptized in a "Southern Baptist" Church and hold to a cessationist view of the gifts).

Our only hope is for SBC men and women of influence to speak out agaiinst the legalism of the Pharisees as they once did regarding the liberalism of the Saducees.

J Frank Norris died long ago.

Keep him buried Paige.

Bill Parker

[Jeff]

Maybe off topic and little late with the post, but I was wondering if Bill could provide a link or other method by which we could "Check out the new proposed IMB guidelines"?

And just a note on the Graham article. Even a cursory examination will reveal that his main references are to the statistical evidences of alcohol abuse and its results in our American culture, and to the warnings of the Proverbs about the dangers of alcohol. His point is that the Bible warns against the dangers of alcohol, our culture is staggering in a drunken stupor, therefore stay away from the stuff. His question is not, "what is the Biblical position on wine?", but rather "What is the answer for prevention of more problems with alcohol in America?". His answer, "leave it alone".
Not such a bad answer, and not such a bad article, especially if you don't read it with a predjudice against him because he is of the "old leaders" crowd.

[Joe Thorn]

Jeff,

His age has nothing to do with our interpretation of his article. And as we have argued, and I specifically on my blog, abstinence is not the best/biblical response to the problem.

[Terry Ridgely]

This may be a little late, 3-24-07, but I just read the article and find it to be right on. Will it cause others to stumble? This is a question we can't answer with absolute certainty one way or the other.
Shouldn't we, as Christians, error on the safe side and consider the consequences.
You might think having one beer or a glass of wine with dinner is perfectly fine, but how do you get the beer or wine home? You must go to a store of some sort and make your selection. Then go to the checkout line and pay. In this short time a number of people have likely been spectators to your shopping. People of all ages. Young people especially are vulnerable and highly impressionable. Now, I'm not saying that every kid out there who sees you buy alcohol is going to turn out to be an alcoholic. What I am saying is that this purchase may be one of several witnessed by the individual leading them to think alcohol is alright. With what we now know about alcohol and the associated problems connected with it how can we not see the potential stumbling block as a real possibility. Some people can drink a little and live a productive life while others get caught in a trap that can be difficult to escape from. The thing is, we do not know who will struggle and who will not.
Abstinence is, I believe, a very responsible position for true Christians to take.