Erwin McManus and Denominational Headway

What do you think about Erwin McManus?  Just an open question for anyone who has read one of his books, heard him speak, been to his church (Mosaic).  I've appreciated his ministry and writings.

Baptist Press has an article today on McManus and a class he taught on leadership at GGBTS.  It's a nice introduction to him if you don't know much about him.  He will be preaching at the SBC Annual Meeting Pastor's Conference in June.

I really like McManus' approach to the SBC, in that he makes his noise with his church, his books, his speaking and it's a "building" mentality and not just tearing down.  It's all gospel and mission and zeal for Christ.

Comments

[Jackson Perdue]

I attended that class - and it was great. I had a lot of respect for him going in, having heard him speak a couple times and reading a couple of his books. He did a good job in teaching the class - his approach was more of a "this is a good way to think" than a "do this thing." He challenged a lot of traditional thinking and did a good job conveying his message. I'm still processing through what I learned in the class and what I read in the books he assigned.

Even better, though was the fact that even though Erwin was sick and really busy, had a lot of people clamoring for his attention and time - he took the time to have lunch with me. After one of the class sessions I asked for some time with him, and he welcomed me to lunch with him and two of his staff. He was humble, took an interest in my questions and asked some of his own about me and my ministry, and was a nice guy. From my perspective he lives what he preaches, and is one of the pastors/leaders I most admire and enjoy learning from.

I blogged a little about what I learned in the class and my lunch with him.

[Steve McCoy]

Thanks Jackson. Good to get an insider perspective on the class. I made your link a hyperlink.

[Jackson Perdue]

Thanks.

I don't mean to come off as a McManus fanboy, either. I just appreciate him. Heh.

[scott zeller]

The only exposure I've have to McManus was that he was the speaker at "fresh 2005" (a youth gathering here in SoCal I attended because David Crowder was playing). Honestly I was appalled at what I guess was McManus' attempt at a gospel presentation. He spoke for about 45 minutes about how Jesus was barbarian and so was John the Baptist and how Jesus wanted us to be like mushroom eating rhino's who were just living the craziest of lives. His "alter call" was for those who wanted to be barbarians for Jesus to stand and give their biggest "barbarian yell."

I don't want to judge the guy on one speaking event. But were I to, I would say that at best I saddened by the missed opportuinity to share Christ with 5,000 youth and at worst found him to be somewhat decieving as to what the gospel is due to his lack of mention of what I would consider to be the essentials of a gospel presentation (mention of the cross, sin, redemption, stuff like that).

I look forward to hearing what others have to say and hopefully getting a better sense for who McManus is.

SEZ

[P.o.C.]

I've read McManus' 'Barbarian Way,' which sounded like a provocative read from the title and the dustjacket. He had some good points throughout about having a tame faith and so on...but it left me wanting something more. His illustrations were of him jetskiing or rock climbing or whatever...taking all these fancy trips, participating in X-sports, and using them as metaphor for the risks we take in Barbarian Christianity. Nothing about radical identification with the poor, nothing about speaking out prophetically and risking alienating friends.

The Barbarian Way is a good metaphor and a good idea, but the book comes off as actually being rather tame.

[Craig Lee]

Having heard Erwin on several occasions I have come to value him as the rising star of Evangelicalism. Just this past weekend at C3 (Ed Young Jr. Creative Pastors Conference) his message was at the top. His approach to speaking is different than most will accept however when you take in the content and measure it against scripture you will see he is in line Biblically. It is unfortunate that many will judge him on method and not message. Maybe this is why he is reaching thousands and others are reaching their few. Heard that story before I think!

Craig

[Joe Kennedy]

Love Erwin, his brother Alex, and most of their family, even though we've never officially met. It's been an incredible journey since I was first introduced to Mosaic and Erwin at Thirsty 2004 at North Point Community Church.

I've read An Unstoppable Force, most of Uprising, all of the Barbarian Way, and all of Seizing Your Divine Moment. Good stuff. Unique approach to things. I appreciate the storying ability he has. And I appreciate the genuinity (genuine-ness? what word am i looking for? perhaps authenticity and realism) of his life and works.

And thanks to all the Mosaic people I've met, I'm a much better person.

[Joe Kennedy]

(All of their family- I've only encountered a few online, though.)

[Kevin Bussey]

Both times I heard Erwin I was challenged. What I love about God is he uses people with different backgrounds and gifts to minister to their unique setting. I couldn't copy Erwin's methods in my ministry, but I appreciate him for who he is.

SEZ, I wouldn't take one message as your only impression of Erwin. Joe K. knows I was disappointed by an un-named speaker this summer. We all have off days and I appreciate the creativity that I see in Erwin and other speakers out there today.

[bob hyatt]

I'm a fan boy... I think Erwin rocks :)
We do church different, but his book Seizing Your Divine Moment was pretty instrumental in getting me off my rear and into church planting.

[Steve McCoy]

Bob, I've found that book helpful too. It was just rereleased under another title Chasing Daylight.

[Jon]

My wife and I have been members of Mosaic for a couple of years now. To state the obvious, Erwin is a great communicator not to mention a good exegete of the cultural whirlpool which is LA. Even with all the jaded cynicism and overly critical ears that come from being a seminary student I can honestly say that we've enjoyed being a part of the Mosaic community (as a somewhat round about compliment to Erwin and his leadership I can also say that he's not the primary reason we do enjoy it). Now, because of the aforementioned character faults there is plenty I could and can disagree with Erwin on - both what he says and how he says it. However, let me throw out two things that impress me. Erwin is a busy guy - almost every comment above is about encountering Erwin at some type of conference/speaking engagement, I'm constantly seeing him on the lineup for conferences and conventions - however, I think I can almost count on one hand (plus a couple of fingers) the number of times Erwin hasn't been here to preach on Sunday. He's not a great "pastor" (if I can make that somewhat antiquated and not altogether healthy distinction), I don't really think the multi-site, personality driven model of church that Mosaic practices is where the future hope of the church lies (down cynicism, down) but it is obvious to everyone here that his main priority isn't books, isn't speaking engagements, isn't conferences, but it is the community of Mosaic. Second, despite the "success" he's a guy who is very aware of his faults/weaknesses in ministry and does his best to surround himself with people who can come alongside and bolster those areas in which he needs help - ie, he's humble in ways that is surprising to some.

Lastly, one thought on "denominational headway." I'm interested to see what happens there. In the two, almost three years, that we've been attending Mosaic I don't think its an exaggeration to say that we have never heard the words Southern Baptist Convention come out of Erwin's mouth and there has certainly been no mention of denominational issues, politics, conventions, etc. Now, that’s not surprising given the context and target group that Mosaic seeks to reach (SBC = slavery, oppression of women to the average person on the street in LA) but it is interesting in terms of thinking about how much influence a pastor/church can have upon a denomination which it does not acknowledge (I would also guess that 50% of those who attend Mosaic don't know it is affiliated with the SBC). Its not an issue of shame or embarrassment, because I've heard him speak of the connection when asked in other informal contexts but its definitely not an issue of importance or priority. I've never spoken to Erwin on the subject but you get the sense that both he and Mosaic could walk away from the SBC without losing much sleep simply because its a "battle" that would be seen as more of a distraction than a necessary good for the kingdom. We'll see . . .

[Joe Buchanan]

I heard Erwin Mcmanus at a Promise Keepers event a couple of years ago. This was my first and last PK event, and I have to say that McManus is a good communicator and can keep your interest. However, he said nothing in 2 days that even remotley connected with the Scripture or to the gospel. He got the crowd going with lots of chants and tom-follery but left us with no content. I am suprised to hear the he will be speaking at the SBC Pastors conference. I hope that the PK event was an anomally and that he will have something to say from the Bible.

[iMonk]

My experience was also at PK, and he was the only guy at the event who remotely said anything I found authentic.

I am sorry- really sorry- to see that the emerging church appears to be MORE personality driven than I ever thought possible. The high profile these young pastors are cutting is not a good thing. We need lower profile pastors and higher profile laity.

[D.R. Randle]

I am concerned with his connection to open theism and comments made by the LA Times reporter who did an article on his church, in which the journalist said that Mosaic was affiliated with the SBC but did not hold to some of their doctrine, such as the fact that Mosaic supports the idea of women pastors. If he cannot sign the BF&M, I am not sure he should be moving up the denominational chain.

[Joe Kennedy]

DR, I had a professor at NOBTS tell me that, within BFM guidelines, women may hold the title of any pastorship within a church EXCEPT the role of senior pastor. I didn't follow it up with research, because I'd heard it before from a different professor (who I think you know well, but don't quote me on that). I don't want to take this thread that direction- to make it about women's roles as pastors- but I think that's within the constraints of the BFM2K. I could be wrong.

[Joe Kennedy]

DR, email me to follow up. I checked the BFM and I know you and I will have some discussions- although I don't have a whole lot to say about it.

[Stuart]

My exposure has been through CDs and Mp3s of messages presented at events like a pastor's conference.

My observations:
* He's much less concerned with moving up any denominational food chain than with moving people into/onto mission.
* I hear stories of God's sovereignty and providence--divine activity in His creation and divinely orchestrated meetings, events, etc. for the explaining of the gospel. I'd be curious for a link to a site that explains his association with Open Theism.
* Every message I've heard has been biblical. No strange chants, yells, or emotional frenzies.

As I understand it, to "join" Mosaic, one must make several commitments that include living an actively evangelistic lifestyle and tithing minimally. Would that more of our churches were this unconventional. (Pun intended.)

[Stuart]

Okay, in the interest of beating a dead horse, I did my own research, and here's what I can find associating McManus with Open Theism. He wrote a snippet that appears on the back of a book jacket for a 2003 book entitled "Is God to Blame?" (I know nothing of the book, its thesis, or its author, but the title sounds openess-ish.)

I did also find this statement by McManus, "There's nothing you can do to thwart the will of God." Making statements like that, if he is an Open Theist, he isn't a very good one.

[Joe Kennedy]

Thanks Stuart.

[Guy]

I have met Erwin before a spent a little time with him but I don't think of myself as someone that "knows" him. I don't know what a McManus "fanboy" is but if it means that I am someone that looks up to Erwin and hope that I could be used by God the way he is then I would have to say I must be a "fanboy" and I am proud of it.
Is Erwin perfect? Nope. Is his theology "in order"? I guess that is up to you to decide. Is his heart in the right place and is he heading in the right direction? I will risk answering this and say absolutely yes. How can I be so sure? Fruit. I have had the chance to get to know a number of people that are a part of the Body that is called Mosaic. I have been so encouraged and challenged by the witness and character of those brothers and sisters that have chosen to be a part of Mosaic and be lead by Erwin's leadership team. I call that fruit and it isn't "Erwin's" fruit. It is the fruit of the Body of Christ that meets in various places in LA that we call Mosaic.
Here are some examples. Erwin and Co. came to Thailand one year to serve one of the regions of the International Mission Board (SBC). My wife and I dropped our daughter Zoë off at the child care and a lady signed her. About 20 minuets later we were in the main meeting room with Mosaic folks leading the worship time. At that time my wife and I noticed the same lady playing the bass guitar for worship that had just signed in our daughter a few minuets earlier. A day or so later when picking up our daughter this same lady took the time to mention to my wife that Zoë's jaw alignment looked like it might be of some concern in a few years if it didn't correct itself as she grew and wanted us to know to keep an eye on it for our next time back in the US. Turns out this lady is a dentist and not just a dentist but a good one that teaches at a prestigious medical school. She was not the only "rare" person in the Mosaic group that had come to serve us during our meeting but she was the first of so many more stories about the wonderful people that make up the body of Mosaic. I was floored that a "doctor" would take the time to come around the world to take care of our kids and serve us the way the entire Mosaic team did that week.
I had the chance to go to Ensenada, Mexico with Mosaic over a week-end mission trip several years ago. As I had the chance to meet more and more people, I was further amazed by the folks that make up Mosaic. The level of professionalism and giftedness of the people there was only surpassed by their desire to serve the "poor".
We can bust on Erwin all we want to for our "concerns" about his this or that. And, we can pick apart his speeches/sermons/books all we want to. I would like to put out this challenge, find out what the flock is up to that God has Erwin shepherding and pick that apart.
I am sorry for what may come across as a bad attitude but I just think that if some of the people that have written in this blog would take that much energy to send out encouraging notes to people like Erwin and others that are endeavoring to follow God's voice and direction, there would be a great deal more unity and things actually being done for the Kingdom.
I want to say that I am proud of Erwin and I am proud of the body Mosaic. In just the week I spent among that body, I felt more welcomed and a part of their community that I have in most churches I was a member of. All of you that make up Mosaic, keep it up. God is proud of you. Erwin, and all the others that make up the leadership, keep it up. God is proud of you. Keep pressing.
And thanks IronOxide for sending me this link.

[Joe Kennedy]

Guy, the respect and care that's been shown me, even online, by many Mosaic folks has been wonderful. I have nothing but love for them. That goes from Alex McManus to Lu to Niza. They're good people. I also know DR, and while I haven't read all the comments on this blog, I can also vouch for DR. He's got a differing opinion on a lot of things, and may be a little overzealous to link all people who are labeled "Emerging" or "Emergent" to open theism, but he's a good guy. I think this is all just a big misunderstanding.

[Guy]

Thanks Joe, I didn't mean for my comment above to be directed directly at DR. I also would guess that most of the folks that would take the time with a topic like this are good people as well. I did read all the comments on this blog and I was directing my comments to all of them as a whole. I have no problem with differing opinions about certain issues but it seemed like the main issues that people had with Erwin were of a somewhat shallow nature. It seemed like the ones that had the most negative to say were the ones that knew the least about Erwin and or his writings.
I just know that there is an enemy that roams this earth looking to destroy whatever he can. When we divide ourselves with petty differences, we give Satan an opening that weakens our unity. We are supposed to be known to belong to God because of the way we love each other. This love and unity, despite some differences, is what keeps our ranks tight and straight as we do battle.
It just saddens me that some folks, when given the chance to offer up a word about a fellow brother in Christ, would take that opportunity to be negative instead of building each other up. Even those "pagans" at Disney seem to understand this truth in the quote by Thumper, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

[djchuang]

Having heard Erwin live on a dozen occasions or so, listened to podcast, and met on several occasions, he's a passionate storytelling communicator. His drive towards innovation and cultural engagement is contagious. It seems to me that some comments about his lack of "biblical" content delivery is perceived through a lens of theological precision and packaging of a more systematic theology. He's thoroughly Baptist (as one of my Reformed theology friends easily exegetes Erwin), and some of that comes with imprecision in delivery, because engaging the audience intuitively and emotively more than logically rhetorically is at play in public speaking before large crowds.

[Joby Harris]

Hello,
I'm an art director for Mosaic and Awaken Humanity, a non-profit started by Erwin. Erwin is a dear friend of mine and as I stumbled on the site and read alittle, I at least wanted to add my two cents. Please pray for our brother as he takes alot of hits from people within the church. It confuses me, because this man desires more than anything in the world, to see people come to know Jesus Christ as their savior and to live passionate lives for God, and others. Bottom Line. It's what wakes him up every day, to serve others and point people to Jesus Christ. I've lived with he and his family and can only say that he is a man of true integrity and generosity and puts the hearts and souls of people over what others think of him. Please pray for him, for continued strength, protection on his family and perseverance as there are those within the church who have persistently made him their target. God Bless you all!

[LPrieto]

I haven't lived with his family but I had spent time in ministry with him and his family at Mosaic for several years (I was one of the Thailand music/child care company Joe wrote of) and can speak to a couple of concerns mentioned on here:

In regards to his "barbarian language" in sermons:
he is a man of God who is humbly using his gifts as a teacher, artist, motivator, and writer to point those who listen to Jesus Christ. While no church or leader is perfect, God has used him to minister to a vaste audience of marginalized people... many of whom were never approached for fear they were "a lost cause" or even that they were "different". His sermons and books have captured that audience... granted, the language and symbolism may not "float everyone's boat" but it does hold a SIGNIFICANT purpose for those who are tired of trite and worn-out "christianisms". Instead, they are brought to the same BIBLICAL truth message (from the inerrant and infallable Word of God) but convayed through a different style of communication.

In regards to "open theism":
Erwin teaches in absolutes... not possibilities when it comes to the Word and character of God... he DOES talk about the "possibilities" of each individual Christian to be an impact on this city and the world for Christ.

woman pastors:
I think more research will show that within this denomination, woman pastors are ordained as long as they are not lead pastors... the eldership of Mosaic does encourage committed members of the congregation to use their gifts within the church and community regardless of sex or race but has not encouraged female LEAD pastors to emerge. However, there are many women involved at positions of authority at Mosaic: ie, worship, family ministries, women's ministries, etc.

Bottom line, members (who do go through quite a list of commitments) of Mosaic are VERY aware that Erwin is just a man who is as sinful and quirky as the rest of us because he reminds us through his honesty and humility. He has remained accountable to church eldership but most importantly, he remains accountable to Christ.

[Woody]

Erwin is sometimes thrown into the Emergent Church camp and that could be scary. I like how he is willing to meet people where they are without changing the gospel message. But recently I have heard, not seen for myself but plan to, that he endorsed a book by a known Open-theist!!! If that is true I can not stand with Erwin. Open-Theism is a heresy that undermines who God is and subsequently undermines the absolute sovereign authority of Scripture. I am attending the Origins Conference in LA this coming May and hope to learn how Erwin is being so successful in a culture like LA.

[Stuart]

Woody,

Please see my post above dated 02/06/06 at 3:33 p.m. It might prove helpful.

[Keith Walters]

I have read all of Erwin's books and plan to read the documentary that was done about Mosaic.

For anyone who is opposed to his unorthodox style of preaching I would challenge you to listen again to the message content.

Anyone who can reduce his sermon at "fresh 2005" to "He spoke for about 45 minutes about how Jesus was barbarian and so was John the Baptist and how Jesus wanted us to be like mushroom eating rhino's who were just living the craziest of lives." Clearly missed the point of the whole message and should listen again.

I too agree that his "Fresh 2005" sermon "The Barbarian Way" was far better than the book by the same title, although I think this is due to his dynamic preaching style vs reading a book.

Those who are quick to call him Emergent should compare his theology with Emergent theology (or lack there of) and the differences will become clear.

If anything I think his gift is that he cares about people, spends time with people, and thus is able to better communicate with people. I myself know that it is too easy to focus my whole ministry on preaching and teaching and completely miss the relational aspect of it all.