Jesus Loves Porn Stars

If you haven't seen the ABC news piece on the XXXChurch.com's Jesus Loves Porn Stars Bible, you should.  I find this issue fascinating and important.  Craig Gross and others in this ministry go to porn expo's and give away Bibles that have some Christians displeased, including Al Mohler (as the video shows).  More from Mohler at his website.

Please watch the segment and let me know what you think.

Comments

[Dustin]

I saw the piece via the net yesterday, and was familiar with the "controversy" which had been brewing for some time. What I do not understand is the incessant need to be negative. It seems individuals such as Mohler tend to believe that things such as this will be more novelty than anything else. However, is there a price to be paid, in the form of novelty, if one person opens the Word and is changed?

It was interesting in the news piece when Gross challenged others to come join them if they were displeased with what they were doing. I found that to be a great response from him in the face of opposition. If you do not like "how" they are going about their ministry, then go help them do it. Otherwise, shut up and pray that they have an impact.

[Michael Foster]

Mohler said, "Yet, the presence of a Christian ministry within the confines of the Erotica Expo is a step beyond the example of Jesus, I would argue. There is a difference between talking to a prostitute about the Gospel and entering a brothel -- much less buying a booth."

I would counter-argue that Jesus bought a booth in his incarnation. If these guys can be at the Expo, truly ministry to the porn industry, and do it without sin, I say go for it!

[josh]

i agree michael. it seems like mohler wasn't so much worried about the bible as he was what they were doing. which is somewhat typical.

i like how they closed it by saying, we don't have it figured out. we don't have a monopoly on doing this right. but no one else is trying to help and reach these people. so basically . . . cut us some slack while we learn.

that's a much better alternative than doing a 30 minute radio commentary on it and writing articles that don't inform or open up conversation as much as they stir up the pot and reinforce pre-existing beliefs.

[Denny Burk]

I've been commenting on this on my blog. I encourage you to listen to Mohler's interview with one of the guys from XXXChurch. He's not questioning their motives, just the wisdom of their methods. We all need to be open to that kind of critique. In the end, Mohler was very charitable.

Here's the link to the interview: http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_show.php?cdate=2006-06-23.

Thanks,
Denny

[Kgreg]

As a repentant homosexual who lives in the largest gay neighborhood in the world, and just lived through another "Gay Pride Parade" which floods Chelsea with outrageous homosexual behavior for the week prior and on through the rest of this week, I have to say that our Father leads some of us to witness in places that would make a middleclass, suburban, Christian soccermom faint. And I just sent Dr. Mohler an email stating such, as well as thanking him for the great encouragment his writings have been to me. Sometimes, to get people out of the mire, we have to put on our waders (the Word) and go in and try to help them get out. It's a dirty job, but look what Jesus did for us.

[donnie]

I think what they (xxxchurch) are doing is great. They have taken on a ministry that few people would dare... I only question handing out the Message. Hand out the Bible with the cover art, yes...but hand out the Bible.

[Andy]

I would commend Pastor Gross for taking the gospel to this arena. However, the controversy is not over evangelism to porn stars, or giving them a bible, but it is in the presentation. Did I hear the one girl right, "Jesus loves porn too". Sometimes good intentions what are not sifted through the word can end up with a negative effect. If we are not careful with our methodologies we can in turn shame the gospel just as much as if we were not careful with our theology. I am not saying that is happening here, but I believe it is what Mohler is warning about.

As for the comment above about Jesus buying a booth at his incarnation, that is a real stretch of scripture in my opinion. Again I believe this is Mohler's concern. Did Jesus go to celebrations of prostitution and pay to enter in or did he meet prostitutes along the way and minister to them?

[Scott Eaton]

Don't be so quick to judge The Message, Donnie. Every Bible translation or paraphrase has an intented audience and intended purpose. Peterson has stated numerous times that this is not a Bible he would recommend for serious study or preaching, but rather a reading Bible that will hopefully interest the disinterested or stir up a smoldering ember in the hearts of the once interested. It seems that it worked for Bono!

For a porn expo it either The Message or the New Living Translation would have been excellent choices.

[jason allen]

Thanks for the links. I loved what Gross said at the end of the ABC segment. If you have another way to do it then come join us. We're riding solo here, no one else is doing this.

I think he has something significant to say here and I wonder what Mohler and others of his stripe are doing to reach this segment of society? This is an honest question b/c Mohler might be doing a lot and I just don't know about it.

[Mark Jackson]

The real story here is not between two well-spoken & charitable followers of Christ (Al & Craig) but the fundamental problem of the "church" (read: Bible publishers, established ministries, etc.) who is perfectly willing to market to "nice" people (take a look at the magazine format Bibles for teens) but unwilling to market to "people who don't act right."

As a recovering porn addict, I applaud the edginess & honesty of the xxxchurch guys - and I'm glad someone is going to the porn industry with the message of hope. I just know that CAN NOT be me.

[Joe Kennedy]

Andy, I'm fairly certain she wasn't with Craig and Mike. She did say Jesus loves porn, and you hear a "yeah..." from someone standing next to her (Craig, I think), but you don't hear if he continues saying anything. The video cuts at that moment. So we don't know what was said. Anyway, none of those guys would say Jesus loves porn, at least from what I've seen. Have you looked at their website? Or listened to their podcast? Shoot.

[jason allen]

Andy - Another question might be, what did it look like for Jesus to put himself in places where he actually came into contact with prostitutes (or anyone who was far from God for that matter).

This is part of my concern. I wonder how many people who rail on innovative ministry are actually interacting with those far from God.

I don't know Mohler at all, I know of him and every time I turn on a CNN 'religious' news piece his mug is all over the place, but that's it. But an honest question I have for him (and others) is, in what ways are you meaningfully engaging those far from God? Or, maybe a better question, in what ways are you befriending those far from God? Maybe the guy is, and that is great, but this is a valid question in my book.

[Hunter Beaumont]

Dr. Mohler's criticism is still a little fuzzy to me. He says Craig Gross goes "beyond the example of Jesus." I'd like for him to expound on that a bit more. How does he go beyond the example of Jesus? What is the danger here? How is going into an erotic convention different from, say, going into a tax collector's home? Is Gross participating in or condoning the sin of erotica by having a booth at their convention? Or could the presence of a gracious Christian witness that is NOT promoting pornography at a porn convention actually be an implicit rebuke to the porn-purveyors?

There is one real danger in this that we need to acknowledge: Pornography is seductive to even the strongest men. We musn't let "missional" become a covering that prevents us from acknowledging our own weaknesses. Gross' credibility will ultimately depend on maintaining his purity....being truly in the world but not of it.

[Scott Stewart]

When Jesus incarnated Himself, he entered a "brothel". Talking with Nicodemus (John 3) and talking to a whore (John 4) are the same. Their sin was the same. They were both trying to be their own lords and saviors. One through religious moralism and the other through self-discovery. Both fail. Only Jesus can save us. All of us are on the same playing field.

[Steve McCoy]

I think it's easy to see that Mohler questions methods not motives. I'm thankful for that. I'm also thankful for Mohler's critique of evangelicalism as "risk averse." So true. I also agree with Denny that you should listen to the radio show to get the best picture of both sides. Very helpful.

I say if they'll let guys in to to the expo to give away Bibles, why not? Seems like a great opportunity. The xxxchurch guy on the radio show is sharp. They have been praying and fasting about this convention and have people fasting for them as they are there. How awesome is that? A big argument from Mohler is that it would be nearly impossible to be there and not sin. I sin in every life situation: sitting in Starbucks, talking with my wife, quick to anger with my kids, pride when someone compliments a sermon (yes, it actually has happened!), etc. Our goal isn't to avoid all temptation, but to trust God while tempted.

Mohler's real concern seems to be associating with the sin. For the life of me, I cannot see how what they are doing is associating with the sin. They are actually the one example of people who are there to speak against the sin! Funny thing is that Mohler seems to pin the association thing on these guys, and I'll just bet that the porn people view them in quite the opposite way. They probably see them as odd and out of place since they don't like porn.

Mohler seems to imply that some might view this ministry in association with sin by being there. Well so what? This is a pattern with a large group of evangelicals who think that we aren't to do anything that could possibly lead to accusations of sinfulness. Remember that Mohler is the same guy who won't eat at a table with someone who has a beer because of how he could be perceived by others.

Jesus and Christians in history have often been accused of sin because they were around and with sinners. Our reputation in that regard is open for slander, and we need to be okay with that.

And his criticism of the Bibles is unfair. It says "NEW TESTAMENT" clearly on the front cover and the guys called them Bibles as they gave them out. They were clear on what it was.

As for the girl who said "Jesus loves porn too," it was a porn star and not ministry people saying it. Sinners say unbiblical things, big shock.

I say we let our brothers and sisters make mistakes be in the area of methodology and practice as we work to seek and serve and love and save the lost. I know some methodology could compromise theology, but I don't think that's the case here.

[iMonk]

I am increasingly wondering if the incarnation is generally understood or appreciated by evangelical Christianity's culture war gurus.

This world is the gutter. Fencing off a porn fair as a really bad place, as opposed to let's say the local mall or a convention of college professors, is profoundly misapplying scripture.

First, we are defending teetotalism. Now what appears to be a quite straightforward effort to reach people involved in a huge pagan industry is called going "too far."

I appreciate that the motives of these evangelists weren't questioned, but I fail to see these New Testaments as anything other than plain evangelistic literature.

It sometimes seems to me that the culture warriors are so tuned to see what's wrong in the culture of the world that they can't see their own cultural biases.

[Jason Ballard]

Personally, although I am about as big a fan of Mohler as you can find, I find the "beyond the example of Jesus" critique a very weak one. It seems that Christians in every age will find themselves having to address issues that Jesus didn't face exactly. Papal authority, globalization, internet, mass consumerism, the printing press, post-modernism, secular societies, and television to name a few. The best we can do is to use the principals of living that Jesus teaches and apply them to the situations of our day. As a matter of fact, Jesus doesn't speak at all to the issue of homosexuality. Does that mean we are going "beyond the example of Jesus" to condemn it? I don't think so.

[Peter R.]

I thought Mohler's comments on his blog and on the radio show were confusing. His biggest beef seems to be with the "Jesus Loves Pornstars" Bible covers, but he never really articulates why. It doesn't sound like he disagrees with the statement, so what exactly is his problem?

Regarding the "going beyond the example of Jesus" business ... Jesus did not merely happen accross the occaisional prostitute (or leper, or tax collecter) on the street. He shared meals with them, which was the ultimate sign of and invitation to friendship in his culture. That's the example we need to follow, and the XXXChurch guys are doing a very good job of it.

[iMonk]

Here. I'll say it.

When you have that many blogs (6), a radio show, etc and you are supposed to have an opinion on everything....sometimes you simply wind up opinionating too much. IOWs, you've gone to far in publishing every thought you ever had.

He's a great man. He's just saying way too much about way too many things these days.

[Andy]

Joe, thank you for clarifying. I realized that she was not with the group.

Jason, I guess I would throw the question back to you. Do you really think what these men are doing is the same as what Christ did in his ministry. I am all for reaching out to prostitutes, homeless, porn stars, but want to make sure the Christ is powerfully and properly portrayed. As for implying that anyone that disagrees with these men, Mohler or me is railing on them, that is not a fair statement. i actually began by commending them. I do have respect for what they are attempting to do. As I have listened and read, I don't believe Mohler has railed on them. At least he did not rail on them as hard as he has be railed on in some of the comments on this site. No one is concerned about all the people and groups Mohler has helped take the gospel to, but rather he is being made out to be anti-taking the gospel to groups.

[brett]

Matthew 11:19

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' YET WISDOM IS VINDICATED BY HER DEEDS."

Mohler questions their wisdome, not their motivation. I think their deeds vindicate the wisdom to their outreach.

[Aaron]

If you want to end the porn industry, evangelize the playes in the industry.

What is happening here is the same thing with Soulforce at the SBC meetings. If you want to change somebody's mind meet them where they are at. The difference is that someone is taking the life saving gospel to the sinners. They need to read the Word of God and find their fulfillment in Christ.

If you are certain you are going to stumble at a porn convention then DON'T GO!!! But you can still assist. And don't just criticize, assist in the work.
Pray. Buy the Bibles they are handing out. Pay for the booth. Pay for the travel expenses.

[Joel]

Steve,

I've got to side with Mohler on this one, principally because I don't interpret what he said on the show as judgemental, but instead as a struggle within himself and a loving warning to his brothers at xxxchurch. Denny Burk is right above: at no point did Mohler question anyone's motives. In fact, several times he explicitly said as much.

I haven't heard anyone say that what these guys do is sinful. However, what I have heard are strong, loving, Biblical warnings to fellow brothers.

I say this having planted a church that had a ministry to strip clubs. It was an effective ministry, and we saw some come to Christ and come out of that business. But it was explicitly a women's ministry. Our elders felt that a man had no business being in a place where the temptation to set evil in front of his eyes would be that strong.

And while I understand above arguments that sin can happen anywhere (i.e. the local mall someone mentioned above), let's be real here: The local strip joint, or that national porn convention isn't the local mall! All of us know that men are turned on by what they see. If any of you guys can go into a place like that and not fall prey to lust, I'll just admit right here that you are better and stronger men than me. Like Mohler, I don't question their motives, and I applaud their tenacity and strong desire to see the lost come to Christ in all contexts. At the same time, I do question the wisdom of a man placing himself in such a situation, even with prayer and fasting at his back.

This isn't to judge these guys, but it is to warn others with similar passion to be very careful. We can't simply say "this is where Jesus would have been" and then leave it there, primarily because we aren't Jesus, and our sin nature will be in high gear in such a place.

With all that said, I'd be interested to know: How many of you who have posted could honestly say that you could go into a place like this and not fall prey to sin?

[Hunter Beaumont]

Perhaps a big underlying question is this: How else would you go about reaching people in the porn industry? Some say, "Don't go to their conventions. That crosses the line." OK, so what would you do to come into contact with these people so you can love them and share the gospel? At some point, we can't just be pundits, studying and reading about culture from a distance, but actual missionaries, interacting with and trying to share the gospel with actual lost people. I'm not saying Mohler isn't a missionary, but I would like to hear a more *constructive* critique - not just "don't go there," but "here's another way we can reach them." Constructive critique is especially needed when it's a grey issue, not a black-and-white one.

[jason allen]

Oh, no no Andy...sorry there's been a misunderstanding. I wasn't really implying you were doing anything of the sort ("railing on them"). Your comment just brought those questions to my mind. Sorry for not being more clear on my part.

I see nothing in the scriptures to overtly dictate they shouldn't be at the expo. If someone would sin by being there on a personal front then for that person they shouldn't be there.

With your last sentence: 'No one is concerned about all the people and groups Mohler has helped take the gospel to, but rather he is being made out to be anti-taking the gospel to groups', I guess that is part of my question, who is he he taking the gospel to? I admit I don't often read his blog, website, listen to his radio stuff, etc. But what I have seen is what he is against.

Maybe someone in the know can help me understand Mohler better.

And Andy, sorry again for the misunderstanding.

[Hunter Beaumont]

Joel, in response to your last question above, I would answer like this: I shouldn't and couldn't go to a porn convention. I'm the weaker brother. But I also can't see how this necessarily leads to sin. I can see how it *could* lead to sin, but not how it always does (as opposed to something more black-and-white like actually watching pornography). So why can't we just say, "I couldn't do that, but I also can't bind Craig Gross' conscience on a grey area. Therefore, I pray that he remains pure and doesn't stumble and wins many people to Jesus by his purity and his words."

[Steve McCoy]

Joel, I read your comment twice and I can't figure out your reasoning for taking Mohler's position. He is against the Bibles as published and against this specific ministry work. Your reasons are that he isn't being judgmental (though he is judging their methods) and that he is giving warnings. But he isn't just giving warnings, he is also disagreeing with this ministry. And as for warnings, the guy on Mohler's radio show was very, very open and clear about how much they understand the dangers.

And I may be wrong, but I see no one here talking about motives. I commended Mohler for leaving motives out of this.

Also, let's stop talking about whether or not WE are strong enough to do this ministry. I believe 1. That I don't think I could do this ministry knowing myself, but that 2 If God wants us to do something He will provide the strength. But who am I to tell someone else they can't do it, that God hasn't called them to it, or that they haven't been given God's provision and strength to do it?

Is it just me or has wisdom become the new buzz word for what we don't do that the Bible doesn't condemn? I think a prayer-bathed, love-motivated, Scripture-giving, accountability-surrounded, Jesus-centered ministry in the middle of Sinville, USA is very wise.

[Joe Kennedy]

Well put, Steve.

[raven]

I honestly can see both sides of this issue and I don't agree with the comment that Mohler was negative. I think that while he couldn't condone it completely I think he WANTED to. I understand Mohlers concerns that there are very few men who could go into that situation and not sin...though this does not in and of itself mean they will

I agree with Mohler and Gross that the church in general has been very much afraid to take risks.

I agree with Gross that you have to take the gospel to sinners, which means more than inviting them to church.

There are nuances here that require biblical refinement though...exactly WHERE is that line where you go too far? Scripture does give us examples, but there is no "this far and no further" other than to flee temptation and not to commit idolatry. This can bring up a myriad of moral dilemmas when we try to bring the gospel to the lost while at the same time not sinning to do so. I'm not sure the answers are easy, but I'm sure they have to exist.

[Stuart]

Maybe if the Bibles said,
"God Loves SOME Porn Stars"! Would that be better? ;)

{Just thought this thread could use a little levity.)

[Steve McCoy]

Raven, you said, "I honestly can see both sides of this issue and I don't agree with the comment that Mohler was negative. I think that while he couldn't condone it completely I think he WANTED to."

In the radio show Mohler said,

"...this is a step too far. I think this goes beyond a sense of responsibility to take the Gospel to sinners. And this is an "associating with sinners" level that I just don't think can be done without bringing the Gospel itself into question. I know that's not what they're trying to do, I just think it's inevitable because it's tied to the testimony of the Christians who are there. It's tied to complicity even in being involved officially as an exhibitor in a hall like this."

That's negative.

[Deeapaulitan]

Good friends of ours (part of the "JC's Girls" team) were just at the porn convention in Cali. XXX Church was there too. I could never do the ministry that Heather or XXX do. After the convention, she posted this on her blog - "Its amazing what a little true love can do and it's devistating what a lot of fake love will do. I saw both aspects tonight." Real love. That is what they are trying to communicate. Their methods and tactics ruffle my naive, sheltered feathers. When someone needs rescuing it isn't always safe to be the rescuer. When someone is drowning you don't stand on the shore and call out directions. As you said, Steve, "prayer-bathed, love-motivated, Scripture-giving, accountability-surrounded, Jesus-centered ministry in the middle of Sinville, USA is very wise".

[Joel]

Steve,

I suppose I should listen to the show again. :) I listened to it day before yesterday, and forgot about his objection to the way the Scriptures were "packaged." I have no problem with that.

Regarding xxxchurch, Maybe I am making a judgement call after all. For example, our elders (including myself) made a judgement call when we said no men could be involved in going into the strip clubs where our church's ministry took place. We made this decision fully aware that para-church minsitries exist which do in fact involve men going into these places.

By making our decision, were we by default questioning the wisdom of those other ministries? I suppose, upon reflection, that we were. I'm not going to tell those guys that they are sinning. But I will (while praying for them and respecting their hearts) tell them that this may not be the wisest way to get the job done.

Is "wisdom" here a buzzword for what I don't do that the Bible doesn't condemn? Nah, I really think wisdom here simply means "wisdom." It's not sinful for a guy to sleep in the same bed with his girlfriend, but I think we would all question the wisdom of it. Why would you lead yourself into such temptation? It's not sinful for a man to speak personally to a woman about her immodest dress, but wisdom would suggest that a woman is better suited to talk about such things.

Now, I've never been to a porn convention, but I would imagine that you see the same "sights" there that you would in a strip club. That being the case, is there a way to be in the building without "watching pornograpy?" Why not stand outside and distribute? Why not allow godly women to go in and distribute? (ala JCs Girls)

As men, God wired us to get excited over what we see. Looking on our wives in this way is one of His good gifts. But looking on other unclothed women is, I believe, to set evil before our eyes. Can fasting and prayer overcome the lust that normally comes with this? Maybe it can. Again, I'm not definitively saying that these guys are doing something sinful. But I do think it is unwise. I don't see this as binding anyone's conscience. I see it as a sincere and loving warning to a fellow brother in Christ.

And remember, I planted a church that started and continues a ministry very similar to this, but doesn't place men in the midst of what is happening. So I'm a bit more than just a "pundit" here.

We may just agree to disagree here, and I'm OK with that. I pray that Pastor Gross reaches hundreds with the Gospel, and that his purity remains intact. At the same time, it only takes one slip up to end this outreach, and his ministry. I hope everyone will take all that I have said in the spirit in which it is meant: genuine care and concern for another brother.

[cavman]

I'd like to make a distinction between motivation and means.
I'm glad that XXXChurch, JC's Girls & XRated Youth want to reach people in the sex trade, or in bondage to sexual idolatry. I think their motives are good.
Perhaps I'm nit-picking, but I think a ministry that identifies itself with sin (XXX & X-Rated)crosses a line. Jesus never called himself a drunk or sinner- the Pharisees did. Reach the lost, but without a name that implies you can be a Christian and drink the dredges of sin.

[Stuart]

Something Newbigin wrote seems pertinent to this conversation. (Emphases are mine.)

"If the gospel is to challenge the public life of our society, if Christians are to occupy the 'high ground' which they vacated in the noontime of modernity...It will only be by movements that begin with the local congregation in which the reality of the new creation is present, known and experienced, and from which men and women will go into every sector of public life and claim it for Christ, to unmask the illusions which have remained hidden and to expose all areas of public life to the illumination of the gospel. But that will only happen as and when local congregations renounce an introverted concern for their own life, and recognize that they exist for the sake of those who are not members, as sign, instrument, and foretaste of God's redeeming grace for the whole life of society."

From The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, p. 232-233.

May God bless Pastor Gross for doing that which some of us can't do and others simply wouldn't if they could.

[Raven]

In the radio show Mohler said,

"...this is a step too far. I think this goes beyond a sense of responsibility to take the Gospel to sinners. And this is an "associating with sinners" level that I just don't think can be done without bringing the Gospel itself into question. I know that's not what they're trying to do, I just think it's inevitable because it's tied to the testimony of the Christians who are there. It's tied to complicity even in being involved officially as an exhibitor in a hall like this."

That's negative.
--------------------

The tone of his show was not negative. It was as sympathetic as one could be when you disagree with the way something is being done. Why is it when someone disagrees with a position it's branded as 'negativity' Its disagreement, which is not the same thing. Mohler agreed with Gross on several points, he just could not make the entire journey.

I also see value in his stance, I've been there several times on various issues...

I happen to believe that the 6 counties of Northern Ireland should be united with the rest of the Island.

(Mohler agrees that pornstars should be evangelised)

I happen to believe that the motives of a given group of Irish nationalists are (to my knowledge) good.

(Mohler believes that XXXChurch's motives are good)

I also happen to believe that the methods of many Irish nationalists are not right.

(Mohler believes that the methods employed are not right)

There is no way my conscience can embrace the historical methods of the militant republican groups in N I even though I believe very much that N I should be free. I WANT to side with them, I just can't completely do so because the WAY they are going about getting their message out is wrong.

I believe that is where Mohler is.

A better question though...is he correct. I'm not hung up on the bible thing, I actually believe if you're gonna put a cover on the bible which would diliberately provoke controversy you should use a paraphrase and not the real bible. I don't believe in using marketing tactics with the Holy Word of God, but have no qualms about a paraphrase of it being used that way.

I do however believe that you should not "rent a booth" at an event like that. Should you go at all? Heck yeah, if you are strong enough spiritually to do that, but just keep it outside or in the foyer somewhere.

Jesus ate with prostitutes, but he didn't go into brothels to find them. The disciples met with pagans where they lived their everyday lives but they did not set up shop in their temples. I'm not going to a methlab to wittness to drug dealers, even if I was allowed to legally I would not go into the room where abortions are performed to wittness to the doctor, or to a mob conference to wittness to organised crime nor will I attend a pagan worship service to reach wiccans. I can hang out beside those places all day long, I can have one on one conversations with these people all day long. But I don't believe its correct to go inside. Those things are not modeled in scripture by Jesus or the disciples.

[Steve McCoy]

Mohler's overall point is negative. That isn't debatable. He means to disagree or he wouldn't have done the show. And I've already complimented Mohler for tone toward motive, so I can't figure out why people are trying to defend him for something not needing a defense.

My point has been that I find it sad that Mohler is on national TV criticizing this ministry work. Unless there is something they are doing that's clearly wrong (not just potentially wrong or risky) let's allow them to work and answer to God for how the work is done.

The other thing I can't figure out is why those defending Mohler, and Mohler himself, are talking as if the expo center is full of orgies or something. This isn't the equivalent of an abortion procedure or a brothel or the temple of Diana. They aren't filming pornos in the expo center for all to see. This is like a media blitz for the temple or brothel or clinic, etc. We need to get a proper understanding of what this place is and what is done there (as well as what it isn't and what isn't done) if we are going to disagree with this ministry.

The way I see it, a few people are courageous enough to pass around our "good media" in the midst of their sinful media, and that can bring redemption. So I say press on.

[Rose Black]

Raven and Mohler and a few other people here are right. You said its not the same thing as going into temples or brothels. It's a professional convention, so it would be the same principle. The purpose of conventions are to show what's new, promote whatever the convention is about and for professionals to get ideas from each other. I doubt they are running around nekkid, but the point of the whole thing is to PROMOTE it. So a christian group comes inside a venue designed to PROMOTE sin. That isn't the same thing as what Jesus did when he had dinner with tax collectors and prostitutes.

And Jesus is not always the role model for the church, because He was also totally God not just totally Man. His disciples are the role model,and you don't see them boing places intended to PROMOTE sin. Just going to talk to sinners and hang out in peoples houses.

I do think they should be there, just outside somewhere. Maybe next to the mean spirited protesters who want to tell everyone that God hates them...so they can trump them. I know the meanies have to be there somewhere, they always are.

[Dean]

I've been a supporter of XXXChurch for a long time now. I'm also a pretty regular listener to the Albert Mohler Radio Program.

I listened to Dr. Mohler's XXXChurch show last night prepared to be angry. Yet, I found him very reasonable in his critique, ultimately being gracious and complimentary while expressing his disagreement.

I think Mohler is ultimately wrong in his assesment, but I'm fine with his charitable critique.

[Mike Edwards]

I think Mohler was fair in saying that it wasn't personal, but a question of strategy and for that I commend him. However, his comment:

"There is a difference between talking to a prostitute about the Gospel and entering a brothel -- much less buying a booth."

Gives an unfair comparison that would only be applicable if Craig/Mike from xxxchurch would have purchased porn material available at the expo for use. So, readers of Mohler's take need to think twice before making that leap.

[Ben]

As one who is personally confused about the wisdom of this issue, I'm surprised a number of points haven't been addressed directly:

1) xxxChurch and others who join in the convention must pay for space there. Are they not then funding the system they (we) wish to destroy? Maybe this is a worthy expense for a greater good? (Please note that we all "fund" sinners, but we should certainly not "fund" sin. That is, I should pay my grocer, who happens to be an adulterer, for my potatoes, but I should not fund his mistress.)

2) The brother on the Mohler radio program admitted that he sins when he's in the convention in ways that he wouldn't if he didn't go in. Is there a biblical answer to which is more important 1) fleeing from sin or 2) preaching the Gospel? Can we really judge the "lesser of the two evils?" (Please note, Jesus was tempted in every way but had no sinful, fleshly nature, so his incarnation is not the same as me, a sinful human, going to a porn convention.)

3) The Bible title is confusing at best, and that's evident from the comment overheard on the news report. It could well be interpreted that these guys are preaching that Jesus likes porn and porn stars and thus approves of them and their livestyle. I hope that the back cover of the Bible clears up this, but with Jesus dressed to look like a pimp on the front cover, it seems to be saying, "Jesus loves your industry." I trust that Craig and the others speak correctly about this, but what does the passer-by think? If the back cover or first page clears this up, good. Other ideas for a startling, but wiser title?

I'd love to hear people discuss these questions, or tell me that I've misunderstood the issues. Seriously.

I'll respond to my own #2. I think we have to be serious about both 1) fleeing from sin, and 2) evangelizing the unbelievers. I would think they could be smarter about fleeing from sin while doing this work. The guys could go in with blindfolds or double eye-patches and do the same thing - their wives or other women could hold their hands so someone does mess with them. Maybe it would seem foolish to the others there, but that would be strategically perfect. This would also clarify the fact that they do not approve of this stuff, and neither does the Jesus they promote approve of this stuff, but that they love the people and want to call them away to something better and more beautiful than porn.

Finally, I love their zeal, but I think they could act wiser in parts of this strategy. That said, I'm glad they are trying and thinking about these things. I'd love for others to respond to the above concerns, and hopefully offer some good ideas to the brothers at xxxChurch.

[Joe Thorn]

"And Jesus is not always the role model for the church."

[Steve McCoy]

Please tell me the biblical principles that say we should not go into places that promote sin. I don't know of any verses or texts that give this principle. The point of mission is entering a world that promotes sin to promote the Gospel.

In that vein, would you daily enter the "employee" door of an abortion clinic to give out Bibles to all young girls getting abortions if they let you in? Of course you would, and they promote sin and practice sin there.

Also, would you enter a Buddhist Temple if they allowed you to talk about Jesus and speak a loving warning against the teachings of Buddhism? Of course you would, and they promote sin and practice sin there.

Someone might say that it doesn't put you under temptation to sin in an abortion clinic. Granted. But it might if you were a younger Christian not solid in the faith if you entered a Buddhist Temple. A good comparison I think. They will have stronger scholars than you there, and could get you to question your beliefs. That's why you need mature, prayed-up, prayed for, biblically equipped people going in and not young, extremely vulnerable Christians.

Same for the erotica expo. You go in prepared or you don't go. You go in with the fear of God or you don't go. From what they say, these guys are prepared.

By the way, I don't remember the guy from xxxchurch on Mohler's show saying he sins at the expo. I thought he said his eyes tend to stray. I find that to be a confession of struggle with temptation, not a confession of sin.

And you don't "flee from sin" by avoiding temptation, but by preparing yourself for temptation. 1 Corinthians 10:13 talks about enduring temptation by God's grace, not fleeing from it.

[Andrew]

For those of you who would like to intercede for these souls desperate for attention, fame and love (aka the porn industry), I am in the process of compiling a list of porn actors/directors so that I can pray for them on their birthday and send them an uplifting card. If you are interested in joining me in prayer, write me.

(apologies to those who I wrote directly before I thought of posting instead!)

[cavman]

Steve,
I haven't been to one of those conventions, but I imagine it would be like the Christian Book Sellers convention. Lots of booths hawking their goods, with samples or give-aways. They may show clips, hand out promo DVDs etc. Some of these things you can avoid (you don't have to receive a DVD). But if they are showing porn... life gets more difficult.
BTW: how in the world did Dobson watch all that porn as part of the commission back in the 80's (?)? I wouldn't sign up for that knowing my wickedly little heart. Did he have a special 'dispensation' of grace? A little second blessing making him impervious to porn? :-)

[cavman]

Steve,
Fleeing does mean to flee. Some temptations are not circumstance specific and we must endure under testing.
But sometimes, when tempted, we should flee- just like Joseph. You don't stand there rebuking the adulterous person who's seducing you- you leave. You don't keep watching a show with scenes that incite lust in your heart- you change the channel or turn off the tube. You flee. Sometimes that is the way out God provides, but His grace (to get back to 1 Cor. 10).

[Steve McCoy]

cavman, of course there is a time to flee. My point is this isn't one of those times (unless a porn star starts coming on to you, then you RRRRRRUUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!!) :)

[Brian W]

I think many of the comments above (and Mohler's public critique) illustrate a continual problem with believers: the tendency to tell others what they should and shouldn't do. It bugs the crap out of me that the main argumentation by most opponents of xxxchurch is, "well, I couldn't go in!" I love Paul's clear expression of the gospel in Romans 1; "...for it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe..." I am fully convinced that God's power can and does enable people to minister in these extreme situations. Yes, much is required, but lets not say "entrance into the erotica conference equals sin". Yes for some (me included), but not for all.

It is obvious that there has been no scriptural support cited against xxxchurch. Even what's past as scriptural isn't scriptural. What's wrong with associating with sinners? Why is that wrong? Why should someone's opinion of me stop my love of sinners (which necessitates contact/a "face")? We all know what the 1st century secular world thought of the early church and their "love feasts". Should have the early church stopped fellowshipping around the Lord's Table because the secular world categorized them as orgies?

It grieves my heart that the first response of some is to criticize their brothers and sisters (some in the press, no less). Why do some feel it's their responsibility to determine the ministry of others? I think Romans 14 has something to say here. vs. 4, "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls."

[Jesse Perry]

I admit I haven't read all the comments, so if I'm repeating something that's already been said, excuse me.
I really think that those who have a problem with Gross and his methods simply can't feel comfortable truly putting their arms around people that they've battled for umpteen years in our nation's "culture war".
They've never had to live amongst gays, pornstars, drugheads, etc..., so they just can't make the transition.
My recommendation, if you can't stomach it, just commend those who can and leave the next generation of leadership up to them.

[Joel]

Brian and Jesse,

Wow, what generalizations and judgements against your brothers who differ with you on this!

1. Who in here is saying "entrance into the erotica conference equals sin?" Perhaps Mohler is suggesting this. I don't know. It certainly isn't the way I interpreted his words. We have said that such action, for a man, (even a man like Pastor Gross) might be unwise, and anyone who would deny this simply isn't dealing with reality.

2. Why is it that when I question the wisdom of someone's methods, it is automatically assumed that I"ve never been where they are, or that I'm worried about "guilt by association," or that I'm just trying to tell them what to do, or judging them, or that I've never lived among such people and therefore can't "stomach" it"? I'm a pastor who has been doing this for a decade and a half, who has seen what pornography does to men (and particularly to pastors), and who has lived life among many of the people you reference above, and saw many of them come to Christ, without me or any other man having to enter their place of business.

Even Pastor Gross said that if there were any better ideas for how to reach them, he was open. I have made such suggestions on this site, because my church fleshed those suggestions out. If he says he has done this ministry without sin, I believe him. But I do question his ability to continue doing so when he places himself in that kind of situation. My concern isn't "association," it is temptation. There are better and wiser ways to accomplish what he wants to accomplish.

I have not said one word out of judgement. I have said what I have said out of fear for my brother, who shares my passion for seeing these people come to Christ, but who is employing methods that I think are ultimately unneccesary and dangerous to him personally. A perusal of the activities and displays that are present in such an environment illustrate that indeed there ARE orgies and such happening, albeit through displayed videos and not in "real life."

One final time I'm going to try to communicate this: I have NEVER said that Pastor Gross sinned. I HAVE said, and continue to say, that this is an unwise move when their are other ways to accomplish it. I would appreciate it if those hurling accusations at me and others regarding our lack of concern for the lost, our lack of experience with such people, and our judgemental attitudes would cease. My record of ministry demonstrates such accusations to be false.

[Kevin Larson]

All your comments resonate with me-- about going into the world and imitating the incarnation... but... are you holier than I am (quite possible)? I couldn't have a booth in a porn convention without sinning. Are you guys normal? :) Maybe I struggle more with lust than you boys, but I doubt it.

[Scott M]

I know I'm joining this conversation late. It's been a busy week. But for those still reading it, I have several thoughts.

First, I sense a deep disconnect with the utterly scandalous nature of Jesus' behavior. In his culture, eating with someone who was 'unclean' rendered you 'unclean' or 'unholy'. The things he did were not at all like us grabbing a burger with some disreputable sorts. He was going places and hanging out with people who were considered 'unholy'. Setting up a booth at a porn convention is probably a pretty close cultural parallel. It was that serious. Pharisees often would not eat with anything other than other Pharisees because they did not want to risk eating with someone who might unknowingly be unclean.

Further, we know that not just from our cultural understanding and study, but from the very nature of the charge laid against Jesus. The charge that he was a glutton and a drunkard comes straight from Torah. It's the charge parents were to make of a rebellious son before he was stoned! Stating this is something Jesus would not have done demonstrates (to me) a lack of appreciation for exactly what Jesus did throughout the Incarnation. In this instance, it's important to try to look beyond our own cultural lens.

Jesus is not our example? I can't begin to formulate any coherent response to that proposal.

As far as those who say 'Jesus was God, we're not', shame on you! No, we're not God. We're going to screw up. We're even going to (gasp!) sin. It's not OK, but it doesn't relieve us of our responsibility. We are the only tangible representation of Jesus the people around us will ever see. It's our job to do what Jesus did, to be Jesus to those around us. And what do you mean we can't? Folks, do you believe Scripture? We carry God's Spirit around with us! Are those who are culturally formed Christians so jaded they can be blase about that? As followers of Jesus, we have God in us and with us every moment! It sounds like a lot of people would not join with Paul in saying, "I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Not some things. Not things in areas where I'm not weak. All things.

And if that means trying to be Jesus at a porn convention, then that's what it means. Frankly, in this instance Mohler sounds more like Jesus' accusers than Jesus. At least to these ears.

That's the thing that confuses me so much about the American church, especially the evangelical portion of it. It seems like so many of the people in it don't actually believe the things they say. They're just words, meaningless jargon.

But that's probably being too harsh. I don't want to be harsh.

But God's in us, guys! And it's the only part of God that people are going to be able to see, touch, hear, or smell. I mean, I'm not very good at all at being Jesus for those around me. But it never ceases to amaze and overwhelm me that I'm expected to be, that I have God in me now, and that Jesus says I'm capable of doing it. Let that sink in! Please?

[Rose Black]

When I said Jesus isn't always the example for the church I mean that he sometimes did things that we do not have the right or license to do.

God certainly would not have us die for the sins of the world to attempt would be blasphemy. Only Jesus was allowed to do that. He didn't just tell people their sins were forgiven, He forgave them. We can't do that (in the ultimate sense). He went out into the desert to be tempted by the Devil. We're told to flee temptation, not go looking for it. So automatically assuming that because Jesus did something that it is correct for us to do is wrong.

If you see Jesus do something in the bible, you see if it was commanded to us, see if it was modeled by the apostles and early church, that sort of thing. Then go out and do it. It's not "what would Jesus do?" It's "what would Jesus want ME to do?"

[Nick P.]

Minor point of clarification, but many of the comments have referred to Gross or things that Gross said - -- note that the interview with Dr. Mohler was done by J.R. from XXXChurch, not Craig Gross or Mike Foster.

[Steve McCoy]

Nick, I haven't noticed if anyone has it wrong, but Gross is on the TV spot and J.R. the radio spot. I have tried to keep them in order in my comments, but both are involved directly for the purposes of this thread.

[Timbo]

I have not watched and listened to the media spots on this issue and have only skimmed the comments, so forgive me if I repeat something that's already been said. I think there are legitimate points on both sides of this, yet I'm wary of the comparison being made between the fact that Jesus hung out with sinners and having a booth at a porn convention. The one scene from the Bible that keeps coming to my mind is when Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers. They had booths in the Temple courtyard but Jesus didn't buy a booth and hand out "Jesus loves the money changers" copies of the Old Testament; He did something far more radical and alarming. While thrashing booths at the porn expo would be excessive, so too, in my humble opinion, is giving financial support to a pornographic convention by buying one.

[Scott M]

Hmmm. Jesus overturning the tables of those selling 'approved' sacrificial animals and changing money into 'approved' coins for the temple tax were impeding (and profiting by doing so) the access of the people to God and their duty to God.

I'm not convinced that particular comparison even vaguely fits the actions of XXXChurch. In fact, given the deep cultural and Torah implications of eating with those who were unclean, that continues to strike me as the closest parallel in our culture to their actions. Nor have I seen any reason in this thread to think otherwise.

[Stuart Brogden]

People - what the XXXChurch gave away was NOT the Bible. It was "The Message" - a personal re-write of the Bible and not the same as. It is fatally flawed and cannot be referred as Scripture.

[Timbo]

. . . those selling 'approved' sacrificial animals and changing money into 'approved' coins for the temple tax were impeding (and profiting by doing so) the access of the people to God and their duty to God.

Doesn't porn impede our duty to God? In my experience, porn has definitely prevented me from giving God His due in my life. How many families are disrupted by the prevalence of porn? Is porn not impeding their ability to access God as a family? And how about all the women who feel like they are ugly because of porn's objectification of women for profit? Porn is destructive.