Piper & Dever & Ware, Oh My

I listened to the new 9 Marks interview last night: Particular Redemption, The New Perspective, and More with John Piper (and Bruce Ware!).  This is a wonderful, encouraging, challenging discussion. 

It starts with Piper and Ware discussing differences in their soteriology.  It's basically Piper challenging Ware's soteriology.  Then you get a lot of Piper (with a little Dever seasoning) discussing all sorts of things: what he's writing and has written, what's wrong with missional, contextualization, ecclesiology, and much more.  Don't miss the place where Piper challenges Dever's resistance to multiple services.  Piper = "in yo face, speaking the truth in love, hard to argue with the Christ-like, erudite pastor" fun.

As usual I don't agree with everything or everyone in the audio.  But overhearing this conversation was very enjoyable for me and shows why I love John Piper so much.  Listening to him makes me want to be a more devoted and passionate disciple, husband and pastor.

I also want to reiterate how much I like the 9 Marks website.  Lots of articles, reviews, and a great list of other free audio interviews.  Again, I don't agree with everything at 9 Marks, but I consider Dever a mentor on several levels and I like much of what they have to say to churches and pastors.

Comments

[Justin Buzzard]

I feel like I'm always listening to the same podcasts/lectures/interviews as you within the same 24 hour period. I just now listened to the first half of this super long interview while working out. I haven't yet gotten to Piper's challenge of Dever's one service theology, so I'm now looking forward to that. I enjoyed listening to the Piper/Ware debate and to Piper's articulation of how he sees his main job as being a man who walks closely with God.

How his writing on Wright takes shape should prove interesting...

[UberGoober]

I listened to the interview yesterday and, personally, found myself so frustrated I screamed at my computer. Piper goes to pretty great lengths to criticize N. T. Wrights view of justification (which, I'm not certain Piper is articulating clearly), in the end it sounded to me like he was making the exact argument he was accusing Wright of making erroneously. The issue of works in the life of the believer is certainly a toughy, but I don't think Piper has it nailed either.

Don't get me wrong, there has not been any greater singular influence on my thinking and theology than John Piper. It just doesn't seem that for all the attention given to it, he made things any clearer. It was a frustrating two hours for me.

[Timmy Brister]

Steve!

Wow.

Nice.

[Charlie Wallace]

I'm curious...without listening to the podcast, what were Piper's main problems with the missional approach and contextualization?

[Steve McCoy]

Charlie, 51 minutes in they hit these issues.

Piper thinks "missional" sounds "trendy." I would respond, how about "Christian Hedonism?" :) He doesn't like that it doesn't have an historic meaning, is co-opted by less doctrinally sound people, etc. Dever doesn't like the foundational Guder/Bosch stuff because they are not conversion models. Dever likes how Keller picks it up better. Piper is happy with Keller's explanation of the word/idea.

The next question is about the Keller/Driscoll "changing culture" model of church.

[Charlie Wallace]

Thanks. And yes, any Piperism is more then trendy.

[perry mccall]

Oh...my! I have never heard someone stand up to Piper without a hint of intimidation. I couldn't believe how timid Ware was in his answers. I agree that Piper tried to confront Dever but was most definitely not successful. Even to the point of Piper's plea of stop bursting my bubble by, "stop telling me that!" (or whatever that phrase was)

I loved it most of all because it seems clear that two friends have been discussing this issue before and it doesn't hinder their relationship at all. I think it is great to see two leaders who are some important in my development through their ministries mixing it up just like I do with my friends. It is a wonderful reminder of how much they are just like us at the end of the day. My friend Bo is always bursting my bubble too. I am always the better for it.

[matt]

perry,

Now imagine if you and your friends mixing it up was in front of a crowd, taped, and podcasted out to the masses. More than anything these dudes have cojones.

[perry mccall]

Matt,
I know! I love those guys.